Do you believe God intervenes & answers prayers?

[_Jersey Girl]

JAK,

I disagree with your application of the word "manipulate" in reference to prayer except in cases where an individual attempts to bargain with God. From dictionary.com, here is a series of definitions for "manipulate". There were others from other dictionaries, however this one seemed to contain all concepts.

manipulate

verb
1. influence or control shrewdly or deviously; "He manipulated public opinion in his favor"
2. hold something in one's hands and move it
3. fake or falsify; "Fudge the figures"; "cook the books"; "falsify the data" [syn: fudge]
4. manipulate in a fraudulent manner; "rig prices" [syn: rig]
5. control (others or oneself) or influence skillfully, usually to one's advantage; "She manipulates her boss"; "She is a very controlling mother and doesn't let her children grow up"; "The teacher knew how to keep the class in line"; "she keeps in line"
6. treat manually, as with massage, for therapeutic purposed

[_Jersey Girl]

Here is a word that I think more closely represents what I think prayer is:

ap·peal /əˈpil/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-peel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an earnest request for aid, support, sympathy, mercy, etc.; entreaty; petition; plea.
2. a request or reference to some person or authority for a decision, corroboration, judgment, etc.

There were other definitions in that series, my computer won't copy and paste them for some reason.

[_harmony]

Manipulate? I don't think so. There are basically two kinds of prayers: those expressing gratitude, and those asking for something. And why is asking God for something any different from asking anyone else? Is my grandson manipulating me when he asks for someone to open the door so he can go outside to play?

[_JAK]

Manipulate? I don't think so. There are basically two kinds of prayers: those expressing gratitude, and those asking for something. And why is asking God for something any different from asking anyone else? Is my grandson manipulating me when he asks for someone to open the door so he can go outside to play?

Your examples establish my argument.

Your grandson considers that you have the capacity to deliver what he wants. You do. You are there. You open doors. That can be established by evidence and/or peer review.

Your grandson has a specific result in mind from an observable source (you) to deliver the result. If you open the door, you have been manipulated by your grandson. The analysis is not pejorative in your example. But it is transparent for anyone who makes observation including others who may observe.

manipulate -- to influence

While there are various nuances for the word and applications, it’s applied correctly in my illustrations. Your grandson intends to influence you (whom he can see and with whom has interaction that is fully transparent).

We have evidence for you in your illustration. Your grandson is not praying to you when he asks you to do something which it’s obvious to him that you can do.

However, religious prayer is an attempt to manipulate an environment about which there is rational doubt. Absent genuine evidence for God as characterized by religious dogma of various religions, doubt is a critical component in the attempt to manipulate deity[/b].

Asking [i]God to facilitate a cure for cancer is a significantly different application of attempt to manipulate than your grandson asking you to open the door.

Nevertheless, the word “manipulate” is appropriately applied when people pray that an unestablished entity (God) change/alter an outcome that may become/be the fact.

Praying to be cured of cancer is not equivalent to asking someone to “open the door.” Nor is most prayer equivalent to a communication between people for such a thing as simple as “open the door.” That’s not what people pray for.

Your grandson does not say: “Please God, have grandpa open the door so that I can go out and play.” It would be absurd when your grandson is looking at you and knows, knows what you can do given the situation you described. People don’t pray for what they regard as certainty. (Example: turning on a light switch in a dark room)

So in prayer, people attempt to manipulate God (their notion of the invention God). That attempt to manipulate generally encompasses a condition for which another person is likely inadequate to produce desired result.

In my previous comment, I asked why pray. Why pray?. What do people think or say when they pray?

An expression of “gratitude” may be a perceived method of softening up God. That is, the person: thanks God for a variety of things previously realized or in place, then the person attempts manipulation of the perceived God for more favor.

Of course your grandson, if he is smart, could work the same method on you. He could thank you for something you actually did (transparency is critical), then he could express his desire that you do more for him. That doesn’t make him bad, only smart, courteous, and/or clever.

Why pray?.

Consider that in all these examples there is an attempt to manipulate a perceived entity sufficiently powerful to produce, AND sufficiently subject to manipulation to be persuaded (by prayer to act. Look at the bold highlight which I have added. Notice the action verbs which are used in the attempt to manipulate behavior of the perceived God.

Examples in the following:

Build a spirit of sacrificial love in me toward my life partner.
Teach me to love my wife today the same way Jesus loves me.
Bless my spouse today with your richest blessing in Christ Jesus.
Provide the spiritual needs of my spouse in a way that glorifies You.
Teach both of us to trust your Word without compromise.
Help me keep be faithful to the covenant I made with my eyes.

Protect my children from trouble unless in so doing you're preparing them to serve you.
Lead my children in paths of righteousness and keep them from straying too far.
Protect my kids today, but do what's necessary to train them to make decisions based on your Word.
Lead my children to learn a gentler, more teachable spirit.
Remind my children of Scripture as they contemplate action today.
Grant my children a healthy appetite for your Word.

The efforts to manipulate are extensive in prayers of which these may be typical. These are but a few examples which clearly demonstrate the intent to manipulate some kind of God invention.

Keep in mind as well that invention of gods in the evolution of the human species did not precede the development of early cultures with emergence of language as a form of communication. So “invention” is a correct term to apply to gods and to the newer idea God. Historically, we can trace the emergence of god notions and their collision course with scientific discovery which rendered such notions irrelevant to rational analysis and problem solving.

Let’s look at some other terms often repeated in attempts to manipulate perceptions of gods or God as most religious people today are monotheist.

Some action verbs which are following God in
typical prayers.

Protect
Provide
Make
Give
Bless
Go
Meet (the needs)
Watch (over)
Restore
Sustain
Heal (applied to a vast array of ills)
Direct
Win (people)
Reveal
Remind
Show
Strengthen
Refresh
Grant
Comfort
Help
Supply

Such verbs are in constructions intended to manipulate an invented notion of deity. Keep in mind as well that notions of deity have changed over time and continue to change as religious myth tends to give way to factual analysis.

People use doctors, hospitals, and the latest in medical science for treatment. Some who are successfully treated thank God rather than the medical team.

Recently, a woman in North Korea (75) received cataract surgery from an American doctor. When she could see for the first time in many years, she kissed the ground and thanked Kim Jong-il -- not the surgeon. When asked what she most wanted to see first after her surgery, she said: a picture of Kim Jong-il. --not her children or her grandchildren.

I suppose we might find that a bit strange -- different culture, different values.

JAK

[_JAK]

Here is a word that I think more closely represents what I think prayer is:

ap·peal /əˈpil/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-peel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an earnest request for aid, support, sympathy, mercy, etc.; entreaty; petition; plea.
2. a request or reference to some person or authority for a decision, corroboration, judgment, etc.

There were other definitions in that series, my computer won't copy and paste them for some reason.

You help establish my argument.

Jersey Girl:
1. an earnest request for aid, support, sympathy, mercy, etc.; entreaty; petition; plea.
2. a request or reference to some person or authority for a decision, corroboration, judgment, etc.

Without doubt, an “earnest request for aid” is an attempt to manipulate the one to which that “earnest request” is made.

To remain silent or to make no request “for aid, support, sympathy...” is a zero attempt to manipulate. However, making such appeal is clearly an attempt to manipulate. Otherwise one would say nothing at all.

Since the entity in question is God, the effort is to manipulate without doubt. It’s an attempt to control.

For those who regard that God is a genuine power, appeal to God for intervention in the direction so desired by the one giving voice to prayer, is conspicuously an attempt to manipulate the perceived God.

To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

The “appeal” is believed to be higher authority than the one making the appeal. Otherwise, why make it? It would be absurd.

For example, if a room is dark and if you can flip a switch and turn on the light in the room, you have no need to “appeal” to deity. No prayer under normal circumstances would be made. You have sufficient power to produce the desired result.

However, if there is considerable doubt, if a threat is perceived to be genuine, prayer is an attempt to manipulate a higher power than yourself (as in flip the light switch to lighten a dark room). One does not pray about the flip of a light switch under normal circumstances of conventional use of light switches. (I am not referring to someone who has just rewired a house with the hope that it was done correctly.) I am referring to a normal, conventional use of a light switch to turn on a light. God is irrelevant.

So, why pray?. People do it in an attempt to manipulate what they regard as a god which can, by correct word and/or attitude be manipulated to the advantage of the one who prays.

Generally, people pray to get something which they consider is likely unavailable to them in the absense of prayer. They don’t pray the porch light will come on when they flip the switch. And, if it fails to come on, they don’t talk to God about it. They consider logical possibilities -- the light may be defective -- they try a new bulb -- the new bulb works. God is irrelevant. Rational considerations are relevant.

Hence, as I previously observed and illustrated: Prayer is an attempt to manipulate God by those who consider that God can be manipulated. Keep the central issue in focus. Why “petition” or “request”? The answer is obvious. One does that from the perspective that it will be effective in altering that which would not be altered absent the prayer.

JAK

[_harmony]

According to you, asking anyone for help is manipulating. I think you're being too literal in your use of the word.

[_JAK]

The most important question anyone can ask is, why doesn't God heal amputees?

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

Prayer is superstition and God is imaginary.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI

Particularly well constructed is the milk jug analysis.

JAK

[_Jersey Girl]

No, JAK.

In your post to harmony (?) you state that manipulate=influence. I posted a dictionary definition of the word manipulate as follows:

manipulate

verb
1. influence or control shrewdly or deviously; "He manipulated public opinion in his favor"
2. hold something in one's hands and move it
3. fake or falsify; "Fudge the figures"; "cook the books"; "falsify the data" [syn: fudge]
4. manipulate in a fraudulent manner; "rig prices" [syn: rig]
5. control (others or oneself) or influence skillfully, usually to one's advantage; "She manipulates her boss"; "She is a very controlling mother and doesn't let her children grow up"; "The teacher knew how to keep the class in line"; "she keeps in line"
6. treat manually, as with massage, for therapeutic purposed

According to the above, to manipulate does not involve simple influence, it is to influence Old Testament control shrewdly or deviously, influence skillfully to one's advantage.

How does prayer effect an attempt to influence or control shrewdly or deviously, or influence God skillfully for one's advantage?

Excepting cases of bargaining, where is the shrewdness, deviousness or skillfull influence of God? Again, I disagree with your use of the word manipulate in relation to prayer.

Jersey Girl

[_JAK]

According to you, asking anyone for help is manipulating. I think you're being too literal in your use of the word.

Incorrect. Your statement is not an accurate representation of my analysis.

My word-construction stated what I intended.

JAK

[_harmony]

According to you, asking anyone for help is manipulating. I think you're being too literal in your use of the word.

Incorrect. Your statement is not an accurate representation of my analysis.

My word-construction stated what I intended.

JAK

Your analysis is not an accurate description of prayer.