beastie wrote:Dart is one of the very few believers I've encountered on the internet who understand this problem, by the way. There are a couple of others that come to mind as well. Dart is often treated as a traitor by believers because he empathizes with the evil "apostate".
I agree as well. It is well established that the only reason one would leave the one true church is due to some defect in them. This makes sense as well from the intitutions point of view. In the Book of Mormon, the apostates were the worst of the worst. They were more bitter then those who never had the truth. They were the ones who continued to slaughter teh converted Lamanites when they layed down their weapons.
Additionally one can think of the temple, the covenants and the strictness of the consequences if one turns away from them. I won'e repeat them here but certianly from the very start when one is given to opportunity to leave the endowment to the final covenants there is an element of fear imposed and the idea of defectiveness for anyone how betrays these covenants.
Maybe God is really like this.
I do not know.
But I am pointing out that the group mentality is such that apostasy is really really bad and apostates do have some major flaw if they leave the group.
beastie wrote:Dart is one of the very few believers I've encountered on the internet who understand this problem, by the way. There are a couple of others that come to mind as well. Dart is often treated as a traitor by believers because he empathizes with the evil "apostate".
I tried to be empathetic to the apostates when I was a believing apologist. And look where it got me!!
Be careful, dart. You never know where you'll end up.
Sono_hito wrote:I was homeless for a while untill I could scrounge up enough funds and find an apt.
That'll teach you for leaving the church. Seriously, I can't imagine what your parents were thinking. I have an 18 year old who wants nothing to do with the church, and although my wife is upset about it, she wouldn't think of doing something like that.
Two of my adult children are not active though they are not apostate in the sense of turning againt that church. My guess is that if they ever decide they want religion they wil participate as LDS. One daughter lives with her boyfriend and my son, well, he is just a wild young man right now.
I cannot imagine tossing them out because of not being active. They know I do not approve of all their current choices but they know I love them, they are always welcome in my home (both are on their own pretty much) and we enjoy our associations.
But I always told my kids that I would love them no matter what they chose. Two of four have put me to that test I guess.
beastie wrote:Oh, all us atheist girls are hotties. Satan does that on purpose to tempt the good theist boys.
Actually, I hate to break it to you guys, but I'm probably old enough to be your collective mother. Hair dye does a great job covering pesky grays.
Now if I really wanted to drive you crazy, I'd post a picture of my daughter. She is flat out gorgeous. But then you'd have to deal with the real beastly beastie as well as my boyfriend, who is pretty much her stepdad, and her two older brothers who have sworn to beat the you-know-what out of anyone who looks at her twice.
Runtu wrote: Wade, we're all doing the best we can from our end. What I objected to was the idea that the church doesn't teach these attitudes towards those who leave. I don't find it healthy to pretend that it isn't a problem.
Object all you want. I just don't see that it will get you or anyone else anywhere. Both sides tend to cherry-pick their own set of quotes and will interpret them as supporting their respective opinions. The end result too often has been that a stand-off in differences of opinion occurs, a flurry of finger-pointing ensues, and nothing really positive comes of it (in large part because both sides are looking to the other for positive change). That, to me, is the problem, and the healthy way to rectify things is not to feed into the problem, or to repeat the problem, but to functionally looking inward for solutions and change--look to the onlly real place where we each are empowered and have the ability to affect change.
But you're right that I can't do anything about what they do. I can work to heal myself, and I'm doing the best I can to do that.
I'm glad for that. I am attempting to do the same (though I have great room for improvement, and I can certainly do better), and I hope that others will follow your example.
Object all you want. I just don't see that it will get you or anyone else anywhere. Both sides tend to cherry-pick their own set of quotes and will interpret them as supporting their respective opinions.
Please cherry pick some of your own quotes that demonstrate apostates are not routinely vilified as possessing either serious character flaws or being outright evil. Please cherry pick some quotes that demonstrate LDS leaders recognize that good, decent, sincere former LDS who are not seriously flawed may conclude the church is not true and should not be demonized.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Ok, here's the rule. Guys in their late thirties or above are allowed to think I'm a "hottie". Men that are younger are too close to my own sons' ages and make me feel like a dirty old woman. You're allowed to think "man, she is a good looking mom, I wonder what her daughter looks like." (by the way, my daughter is only 16 so still off limits)
(ps - I had to pick the late thirties as the cut-off due to my celebrity crush on Josh Bernstein. He's lucky I am happily in love with my true soul mate or I would probably stalk him.)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Object all you want. I just don't see that it will get you or anyone else anywhere. Both sides tend to cherry-pick their own set of quotes and will interpret them as supporting their respective opinions.
Please cherry pick some of your own quotes that demonstrate apostates are not routinely vilified as possessing either serious character flaws or being outright evil. Please cherry pick some quotes that demonstrate LDS leaders recognize that good, decent, sincere former LDS who are not seriously flawed may conclude the church is not true and should not be demonized.
Sorry. While that could easily be done (recent talks by Richard Scott in General conference over the last few years would be a gold-mine), I don't wish to get immersed in the "problem" (as previously explained). Instead, as intimated, my focus is on the solution and the implementation thereof--starting, of course, with myself. ;-)
You, of course, are free to choose and do otherwise.
Sorry. While that could easily be done (recent talks by Richard Scott in General conference over the last few years would be a gold-mine), I don't wish to get immersed in the "problem" (as previously explained). Instead, as intimated, my focus is on the solution and the implementation thereof--starting, of course, with myself. ;-)
You want to help us, wade. Show us these quotes that can easily demonstrate your point. That would help us find the "solution", after all, by having a more balanced perception of what the church actually teaches about apostates. (reminder, make sure your quotes specifically address exbelievers, and not the generic "never been Mormons". )
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Ok, here's the rule. Guys in their late thirties or above are allowed to think I'm a "hottie". Men that are younger are too close to my own sons' ages and make me feel like a dirty old woman. You're allowed to think "man, she is a good looking mom, I wonder what her daughter looks like." (by the way, my daughter is only 16 so still off limits)
(ps - I had to pick the late thirties as the cut-off due to my celebrity crush on Josh Bernstein. He's lucky I am happily in love with my true soul mate or I would probably stalk him.)
I would be careful with this line of discussion because someone could conceivably open a thread some day faulting the mormondiscussions.com board for objectifying women, point to this series of exchanges as an example, and thereby give cause to abandon this board. And, those who have faulted the Church for similar and divergent perceptions on this issue, will be forced to agree (unless they apply a double standard), while I will simply reiterate that it is best to look at the perceptions, themselves. ;-)
Please take this in the spirit of light jest in which it is intended.