Anti-Mormonism ineffective? So says bsix

[_Gorman]

So God didn't creat us differently. The differences are inherent, correct?

I'm all with you that it can be improved upon with our effort (and God's help too but He offers it equally to all). Where we part understanding is in asking why some would focus their efforts to improve upon their strength of will while others do not. For those who do not, why can they be held accountable for that difference when that choice was not predicated upon themselves, but rather something innate that they did not chose?

That God isn't responsible for us choosing to be evil I agree. I just wonder whether our end state isn't more of a consequence of an innate nature by which we make choices and which we did not choose (otherwise everyone would would make the same choice to be righteous).

Interesting. I mainly read, and don't post on discussion boards, but I was very much intrigued by this thought process and had to say something.

It appears that if the differences are inherent (seems the most logical), one possible answer (taking an LDS view) would be that there is much less "punishment" or "reward" involved in the final judgment than one would think. This forces us to see God not as the creator of the "rules", but someone who is in the same boat as everyone else, and merely a mentor or guide (not unlike parents). Therefore, according to this thought process, God may have just gone around "talking" with "intelligences", offering to assist them in their quest to better their position. Those who only make it to the Telestial Kingdom will still be grateful to God in assisting them, and will not see it as punishment. The only ones who could be called "punished" would be those who were offered help by God, and did not take his help (sons of perdition). Then of course you would have to ask if that propensity to reject help was ingrained as well and therefore not culpable of anything (although maybe the only punishment is not offering to help them, which would seem fair. They would then merely be left in their previous state of progression).

Interesting ... I wonder if there are other possibilities. I will have to think on this more.

[_asbestosman]

Interesting. I mainly read, and don't post on discussion boards, but I was very much intrigued by this thought process and had to say something.

It appears that if the differences are inherent (seems the most logical), one possible answer (taking an LDS view) would be that there is much less "punishment" or "reward" involved in the final judgment than one would think. This forces us to see God not as the creator of the "rules", but someone who is in the same boat as everyone else, and merely a mentor or guide (not unlike parents). Therefore, according to this thought process, God may have just gone around "talking" with "intelligences", offering to assist them in their quest to better their position. Those who only make it to the Telestial Kingdom will still be grateful to God in assisting them, and will not see it as punishment. The only ones who could be called "punished" would be those who were offered help by God, and did not take his help (sons of perdition). Then of course you would have to ask if that propensity to reject help was ingrained as well and therefore not culpable of anything (although maybe the only punishment is not offering to help them, which would seem fair. They would then merely be left in their previous state of progression).

Actually, I have pondered the same possibility you give. I'm not sure how it'd play out with other things though. For one how does it play out with the idea that those who die before the age of eight are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom? Why the importance of agency if our end state is predetermined by our initial state and our propensity to accept or reject help?

[_Gorman]

Actually, I have pondered the same possibility you give. I'm not sure how it'd play out with other things though. For one how does it play out with the idea that those who die before the age of eight are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom? Why the importance of agency if our end state is predetermined by our initial state and our propensity to accept or reject help?

I agree that the end state cannot be predetermined by the initial conditions if agency is to be valid. I wonder if you could say that when people were "birthed" as spirit children, God merely gave them the ability to adjust their state of being (or initial conditions). This ability could possibly be all that is required for agency. I suspect that would introduce enough uncertainty in the initial conditions to disallow certainty in who would finally end up where (especially if you are allowed to adjust any initial condition, because then you could even adjust your propensity to adjust things). There might have to be minimum requirements for an "intelligence" to be capable of being a human as opposed to an animal (especially in the desire to better yourself category)(I'm not sure if saying animals are also derived from "intelligences" is valid LDS doctrine, but is seems reasonable).

As to the question about free tickets to the Celestial Kingdom for kids, I think you could argue that there is necessarily some fine print on the tickets. I agree that a completely free ticket with no strings attached appears to be problematic. I think it would be reasonable to assume that they get a free pass to the Celestial Kingdom if they can make it past the millennium. From what I understand the, the millennium is not so nice and easy toward the end. I suspect the majority of the Sons of Perdition would come from that period. If children get a provisional pass to the Celestial Kingdom, just like the rest of those who complete the necessary requirements, it would appear to solve the problem. Now, if this is valid LDS doctrine or not is the question.

I guess this stuff is kind of off the topic of the thread. Maybe I should post something in the Free Agency thread.

[_Gazelam]

No one gets a free pass, that woudl work against the plan of salvation. Everyone has to be tried and proven, and I have heard that the Millinium is the time for that.