Why Do Mormons Have a Tendancy to be Judgmental?

[_wenglund]

And, to what extent is it realistic for us (a few relatively no-name participants posting on an obscure message board) to believe we can affect a positive change in others--I.e. with our families, our friends, our ward members, our stakes and missions, or even with the Church as a whole?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think that, like you said, recognizing that this is a problem is a first step. Being an example in the way we handle callings, etc. from this new perspective can make significant changes in subtle ways.

That is my sentiment as well. In fact, I don't view the problem of judgementalism within the Church to be significant enough (relative to other issues addressed in GC and Church related materials) to concern myself or be empassioned beyond that point. I have enough on my plate trying to become my best self to worry much about perfecting others.

However, I can respect that others might think it more serious than me, and may be motivated to escalate matters beyond that point.

Hopefully, though, some wont' use this issue simply as an excuse to bash the Church, but will be constructively motiveated, and that whatever their intents, their efforts will include clear and shining examples of the very things they would like to see affected, rather than a beam and mote approach (not that I have you at all in mind when saying this). ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

And, to what extent is it realistic for us (a few relatively no-name participants posting on an obscure message board) to believe we can affect a positive change in others--I.e. with our families, our friends, our ward members, our stakes and missions, or even with the Church as a whole?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think that, like you said, recognizing that this is a problem is a first step. Being an example in the way we handle callings, etc. from this new perspective can make significant changes in subtle ways.

Great questions, Wade. A key to addressing the problem, in my opinion, is "spreading the word." We need to be sharply critical of talks given by the Brethren that encourage judgmental behavior and attitudes. We need to alert our fellow Saints to aspects of the Church that can lead to being judgmental. In short: we can raise awareness.

We can raise awareness, but I also think it's important to focus on the positive. When we are asked to give talks in Sacrament Meeting, we can give talks with emphasis on Jesus' teachings of, as Jason pointed out earlier, being meek, compassionate, merciful.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

We can raise awareness, but I also think it's important to focus on the positive. When we are asked to give talks in Sacrament Meeting, we can give talks with emphasis on Jesus' teachings of, as Jason pointed out earlier, being meek, compassionate, merciful.

That's a nice thought, but unfortunately speakers don't choose their topics. Their topics are assigned to them. So what do you do when you are assigned to give a talk on Obedience, Tithing, or Modesty? In fact, most of the assigned topics aren't even that general. A more typical assigned topic would be something like, "I know I get blessings when I dress modestly." or "When I faithfully obey the teachings of the prophet, I will be blessed." It's difficult to spin that into a Jesus talk about compassion. Much easier to use that topic to make the women with multiple piercings feel like crap.

[_marg]

Marg: Liz I'm having difficulty understanding what your point or argument is.

Liz: That's because you're looking for an argument where there isn't one. My OP was started to promote a discussion as to why Mormons tend to be judgmental. All I'm asking for is different opinions. You seem hell-bent on arguing with me.

If you had simply stated in your opening that you were looking for reasons why Mormons are judgmental I wouldn’t have found any objection. But you critically used “followers of Law of Moses” which I take to mean followers of Judaism as an example of judgmental peoples to compare judgmental Mormons to, and how not to behave. That is the reason why I said “ there appears to be a little bit of judgmentalism in what you are saying".

marg: For some reason you are equating "Old testament mentality" with judgmentalism of Mormonism.

Liz: No. YOU pulled over some of my comments from Harmony's thread on why we revere counsel from ancient writings. Since my comments were somewhat interrelated, I obliged to engage you in a conversation concerning my comments, even though they weren't exactly part of the original topic. You have obviously misunderstood what I was saying. I probably should not have addressed your issues in this thread, because my points have become blurred. My point, as a follow-up to Blixa's comments, was that because Mormons tend to focus on outward appearances, and become caught up in "how many earrings someone is wearing" or "were they wearing garments under their exercise clothes", that the big picture items of actually following the teachings of Christ become lost in the shuffle. My comment was that I found this sadly ironic.



That aspect of “appearances” is encouraged as being important by church leadership and is used as a means to differentiate itself from other religious groups. The church leadership wants to present itself with an image of being extremely moral, both to members and non. That’s part of its marketing. So they have convinced membership that what they eat/drink, what they wear, how they wear their hair, number of ear piecings that sort of thing are a reflection of obedience and hence high moral values. I'm not sure what teaching of Christ you think members are ignoring, but they are abiding by the teachings of the church which encourages judgmentalism. Don't you think more people would leave the church were it not for their concern about how they will be treated and judged by members and family?

Judgment of other’s morals by their outward appearance is only one small aspect of the institutionalized judgmentalism encouraged by the church.


marg: What is "old testament mentality"?

Liz: What I meant by "Old Testament mentality" was that the followers of the Law of Moses were given very exact rules to follow. This rule-based order was how they measured their future salvation. When Christ came, and fulfilled the lower law, his teachings were not easy to grasp for some who were so caught up in the "rules" that they couldn't see past what Christ was trying to teach. You accused me of making a judgment call on these people. I didn't. I simply re-stated what the scriptures had pointed out in countless stories of Jesus' teachings. Not all of the people he tried to teach understood his concepts because they were caught up in the lower law. If my term, "old testament mentality", offended you, than I apologize.


Well simply restating scripture does not mean you are being nonjudgmental. The New Testament is biased against and misrepresents Judaism. You may have it right as far as what the New Testament says, but if the N.T. is an incorrect interpretation of Judaism you may have it wrong with regards to its followers. In my understanding of Judaism it’s good deeds, how one lives one’s life and treats others, not religious belief, or following rules which is a path to one’s heaven. So I don’t think you are correct in your view of "followers of Law of Moses"/Jews when you say “This rule-based order was how they measured their future salvation”. I don’t believe Jews were/are even interested in salvation in the sense you mean it.

marg: You say the following
My point was that I think that LDS culture makes it very easy to have that same type of "Old Testament" mentality. It's easy to get caught up in tracking and record keeping. Instead of going to Church to worship, it becomes like another work day. We get caught up in meetings (I'm talking about organizational meetings, not Sunday School or Sacrament Meeting), turning in reports (Visiting Teaching/Home Teaching reports, Missionary reports, etc.). We get lost in simply "going through the motions", and actually following the teachings of Christ gets put on the back burner. We're too busy.


Do you think the reason a group of people would be judgmental of others has anything to do with being too busy working?

Liz: As I previously stated, No, that was not my point at all.


marg: I did address why I think Mormons are judgmental. I think it is encouraged by church leadership. They want members to negatively judge those who leave which has the effect of discouraging current members from leaving knowing that if they do that's how they will be viewed and treated. In addition, Mormonism encourages members to view themselves as morally superior to those outside their group. And any group which views itself as morally superior to others will be judgmental of those not in the group.

So my counter to you is that the problem is not that people are too busy to learn "to follow the teachings of Christ" whatever you think that entails but rather the church has reasons for promoting that its members be negatively "judgmental" of those outside their group.


Liz: I appreciate your view and your theory. The whole point of my OP was to find out what others thought was the reason for this attitude. I don't understand why you felt the need to "counter" me. This is not a debate, and you're trying to make it one.

It’s a discussion Liz. And you have argued a point, which I believe is that the reason for Mormon judgmentalism is due to judgmental members following church rules and being so busy doing church work, that they lose sight of what the Jesus character in the Bible taught and hence they negatively judge people based on appearances of those who violate church rules such as on how to dress, or what to drink, tattoos, earings that sort of thing. That’s my perception of your argument/point.

I think people’s involvement in church activities and the time they take up is irrelevant with regards to them having a judgmental attitude. In my opinion the judgmental attitude you note stems from the culture and teachings encouraged by the Mormon church leadership, part of which is encouragement of certain behaviors such as what to eat, drink, wear, etc. Standards of dress, rules etc are used as a means to identify and differentiate Mormon members from other religious groups, and to project a moral superior image. Those who abide are obedient. Non obedience is discouraged and one method of discouragement is negative judgments based on appearances. Those who leave Mormonism are critically judged for being too weak or immoral to follow rules and viewed as morally inferior. And those outside of Mormonism as well can be judged morally inferior.

I disagree with your use of the New Testament scripture as an authority illustrative of how not to be judgmental when it is biased against Judaism, misrepresentative of it, and meant to discredit it. You are using “followers of Law of Moses” as a group one should negatively judge and not follow. Who are followers of Law of Moses if not followers of Judaism, or Jews?

[_Yoda]

Marg- Since I feel like I am talking in circles with you, this will be my last interaction with you. It's obvious that you and I are having serious problems understanding each other.

This is what I stated in my OP, at the beginning of this thread:

One thing that has always bothered me, as a member of the Church, is the judgmental attitudes of other members. These judgmental attitudes seem to exist toward other members who may not be living the Church standards to "their" specifications. It could also apply to non-members or former members of the Church.

The gospel does not encourage this type of behavior, yet it seems to be very prevalent in Church members.

I can understand wanting to protect your family members (children in particular) from harm due to association with a "bad" crowd, which, in my opinion, would be along the lines of kids who are doing drugs, etc.

But this constant "putting your nose in someone else's business" and feeling that you have the right to judge others when none of us are perfect is not a way, in my opinion, to conduct your life, or interact with others.

Thoughts?

But you critically used “followers of Law of Moses” which I take to mean followers of Judaism as an example of judgmental peoples to compare judgmental Mormons to, and how not to behave. That is the reason why I said “ there appears to be a little bit of judgmentalism in what you are saying".

First of all, I was NOT referring to ALL Jewish people. If you READ my statements, when you asked me to define who the "followers of the Law of Moses" I was referring to were, I clarified my stance, and stated that SOME followers of the Law of Moses, for example, the Sadduces and the Pharisees, had a difficult time accepting Jesus' teachings. Part of this was political, and part of this was the fact that his teachings were very unorthodox when compared to the very strict rule-abiding culture which the Law of Moses governed.

It’s a discussion Liz. And you have argued a point, which I believe is that the reason for Mormon judgmentalism is due to judgmental members following church rules and being so busy doing church work, that they lose sight of what the Jesus character in the Bible taught and hence they negatively judge people based on appearances of those who violate church rules such as on how to dress, or what to drink, tattoos, earings that sort of thing. That’s my perception of your argument/point.

Again, I'm not trying to argue a point. Re-read my OP. I made an observation, as a member of the LDS Church, that ONE of the ways that the Church culture encourages judgmentalism is that there is a heavy focus on outward appearance. When did I ever state that this is the ONLY way the LDS Church encourages this? Never. I gave my view of ONE way, and opened it up for discussion.

I think people’s involvement in church activities and the time they take up is irrelevant with regards to them having a judgmental attitude. In my opinion the judgmental attitude you note stems from the culture and teachings encouraged by the Mormon church leadership, part of which is encouragement of certain behaviors such as what to eat, drink, wear, etc. Standards of dress, rules etc are used as a means to identify and differentiate Mormon members from other religious groups, and to project a moral superior image. Those who abide are obedient. Non obedience is discouraged and one method of discouragement is negative judgments based on appearances. Those who leave Mormonism are critically judged for being too weak or immoral to follow rules and viewed as morally inferior. And those outside of Mormonism as well can be judged morally inferior.

I agree with this. Surprised? ;)

You are using “followers of Law of Moses” as a group one should negatively judge and not follow. Who are followers of Law of Moses if not followers of Judaism, or Jews?

Again, you are putting words in my mouth, or I failed to communicate my point. It was not this at all. That was certainly NOT what I was intending to imply, so if that is what came across, I apologize, not only to you, but to anyone else who got that impression. What I was trying to communicate was that SOME, not ALL, of the Jewish people during the time of Christ, did not understand or accept His message because of His unorthodox approach to the old laws.

I disagree with your use of the New Testament scripture as an authority illustrative of how not to be judgmental when it is biased against Judaism, misrepresentative of it, and meant to discredit it.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I accept the New Testament, particularly Christ's teachings, as valid scripture. The fact that you do not, is, of course, your prerogative. I am not going to pursue an argument with you about the validity of the New Testament. That's not the point of this thread.

[_Yoda]

We can raise awareness, but I also think it's important to focus on the positive. When we are asked to give talks in Sacrament Meeting, we can give talks with emphasis on Jesus' teachings of, as Jason pointed out earlier, being meek, compassionate, merciful.

That's a nice thought, but unfortunately speakers don't choose their topics. Their topics are assigned to them. So what do you do when you are assigned to give a talk on Obedience, Tithing, or Modesty? In fact, most of the assigned topics aren't even that general. A more typical assigned topic would be something like, "I know I get blessings when I dress modestly." or "When I faithfully obey the teachings of the prophet, I will be blessed." It's difficult to spin that into a Jesus talk about compassion. Much easier to use that topic to make the women with multiple piercings feel like crap.

But it IS possible to not take that "easy" route.

Does it take more creativity? Yes, but I think it would be worth it.

I'm getting ready to go to bed, but let me think about this, and give some "creative" examples of how these topics might be dealt with.

Thanks for bringing these up! :)

[_marg]

Marg- Since I feel like I am talking in circles with you, this will be my last interaction with you.

No problem Liz, so I won't bother responding to your entire post.

Marg previously: You are using “followers of Law of Moses” as a group one should negatively judge and not follow. Who are followers of Law of Moses if not followers of Judaism, or Jews?[/quote]

Liz: Again, you are putting words in my mouth, or I failed to communicate my point. It was not this at all. That was certainly NOT what I was intending to imply, so if that is what came across, I apologize, not only to you, but anyone else to got that impression. What I was trying to communicate was that SOME, not ALL, of the Jewish people during the time of Christ, did not understand or accept His message because of His unorthadox approach to the old laws.

Marg previously: I disagree with your use of the New Testament scripture as an authority illustrative of how not to be judgmental when it is biased against Judaism, misrepresentative of it, and meant to discredit it.[/quote]

Liz: We'll have to agree to disagree.

The issue is, "why Mormons are judgmental?". I point out the main reason is because of church authority teachings which have encouraged this attitude. The church wants to discredit those who aren’t obedient, those who have left, those who don’t belong. They do so for their (the church’s) benefit. It differentiates them from other religious groups, it helps to discourage apostates. I'll also point out that the N.T. scripture you rely upon as truths in particular about "law of moses followers" was a manipulative device meant to discredit Judaism and benefit Christianity. There’s a connection there Liz. What you don’t appear to appreciate is that just as the Mormon church has a reason to manipulate and encourage members to be judgmental about certain other people or religious groups, because it benefits the church so too early Christian organizers had reason to encourage negative judgmental attitude against Judaism. I am not judging whether it’s right or wrong.

In both cases, the negative judgmental attitude is stemming from a deliberate campaign instigated by religious authority in order to promote itself and discredit others, who or which might be a potential problem.

[_bcspace]

But this constant "putting your nose in someone else's business" and feeling that you have the right to judge others when none of us are perfect is not a way, in my opinion, to conduct your life, or interact with others.

Thoughts?

We are commanded to judge. 1 Corinthians 6:2 and JST Matthew 7:1-2

[Gadianton]

Wade, I don't believe it "causes" judgmentalism, but the church does encourage it and in many ways direct the form such judgmentalism takes. I think you're right that we are more vulnerable to this kind of unhealthy attitude at certain points in our lives. The issue for me regarding the church is that it may inhibit the self-awareness one would need to recognize unhealthy judging.

Could you provide a specific example of how the Church may encourage judgementalism and inhibit self-awareness of unhealthy judging?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Sure.

President Hinckley said that women should not wear more than one pair of earrings. Elder Bednar gave a talk praising a young man who broke off his engagement because his fiancee had two sets of earrings. Thus the idea is reinforced that someone with two sets of earrings is less-valiant in following the prophet's counsel. And someone making that judgment would likely not think twice about it because all he or she is doing is following the prophet's counsel.

Thanks for providing this examples. However, I am not sure how this constitutes judgementalism instead of a logical deduction. Any time guidance or counsel or rules are given (even in secular settings), it may be said of those who do not follow the guidance and so forth, that they are less valiant in following the guidance, or less obedient of the rule. If the governmental law says not to exceed the posted speed limit, then logically doesn't this "reinforce" that someone exceeding the speed limit is less valiant in obeying that traffic law? Is that judgementalism? I don't see that it is.

Now, if someone went beyond that logical deduction and made inappropriate value judgements (for example, were someone to say that Susie is a bad and evil person for wearing two sets of earings, or Johnny is a very bad person for breaking the speeed limit and people should not associate with him), then that would be judgementalism.

However, in this case, I would submit that it is not Hinkley's guidance and Bednar's example that excouraged the judgementalism, but the thoughts of the person who went beyond the logical deduction and made an inappropriate value judgement. In other words, it was encouraged by the mindset of the judgementalist.

I would also submit that in such cases, were the judgementalist to be unaware of his/her judgementalism, his/her awareness is in no way being inhibit by the counsel and example, but again by the mindset of the judgmentalist.

At least that is how I see it.

Perhaps, though, one may say that the young man in Bednar's example was being judgemental. That is certainly possible, though I believe it is equally or more plausible that the young man had merely made an assessment of compatibility regarding one of the most important decisions of his life (it depends on what-all went through the young man's mind and what the young man may have said about his fiance). Just as it may NOT be judgementalism for a young woman, for safety reasons, to decide not drive in a car on a date with a person known to break the speed limit, it may not be judgementalism for the young man to decide, on the same basis, not to marry the young women with two sets of earings.

Granted, some may differ in the criteria they may use in choosing a mate. But, who are we to judge this young man and his decision. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mercury]

But this constant "putting your nose in someone else's business" and feeling that you have the right to judge others when none of us are perfect is not a way, in my opinion, to conduct your life, or interact with others.

Thoughts?

We are commanded to judge. 1 Corinthians 6:2 and JST Matthew 7:1-2

There is nothing worse than someone who believes that being judgemental is a quality. Individuals who believe they have a mandate from god to judge are a disease in society. I find your justification vacuous and self promoting.