Homosexuals Honour Spong...

[_Gazelam]

Sorry I bailed on you, but I had to work Saturday, and I actually ended up being a tad late, I fell asleep on the couch the next morning while watching the news and putting my boots on. : )

I have no intention of rattleing off a grocery list of my sins. Of coarce I am guilty of a number of those items mentioned. As I said before, the crime is in remaining in sin.

The specific group Paul is talking about were those who had a knowledge of Christ and sinned. This is far more damning than a heathen sinning. How many truths does a person have to set aside and let go before they allow homosexuality to be a part of their lives? I imagine alot of the other sins listed there become ingrained upon a persons heart long before the bad touching starts.

that's the difference. Alot of sins are fleeting moments of weakness. Homosexuality is a lifestyle It involves a relationship with another homosexual person. This isn't somethign as simple as a weak moment in church where you spread a word of gossip, this is taking the God given creative force withen us and casting it aside to delve into carnal lusts of an obscene nature. This is beyond simply breaking the law of chastity.

And I never said to not be compassionate. I merely stated that no way in hell is a homosexual going to be a welcome member of a congregation while they persist in living in an openly rebellious state. It wold be the equivalent of a Bishop whose wife left him for cheating on her showing up to Church the following sunday with his mistress and sitting on the stand to continue to carry out his duties. Sin is Sin and wrong is wrong, and if declaring a sin is hurtful to the sinners feeling, well that's just too bad isn't it.

Gaz

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

"God gave them up, God gave them over" ... that's a god made in man's image.

This si to be interpreted : "God did not bar their way"

Free agency is esential to the plan of salvation. Abuse of this brings damnation. A stop in their progression. One hopes it is not permanent.

Plan of salvation ... another sign of a god made in man's image.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Sorry I bailed on you, but I had to work Saturday, and I actually ended up being a tad late, I fell asleep on the couch the next morning while watching the news and putting my boots on. : )

I have no intention of rattleing off a grocery list of my sins. Of coarce I am guilty of a number of those items mentioned. As I said before, the crime is in remaining in sin.

The specific group Paul is talking about were those who had a knowledge of Christ and sinned. This is far more damning than a heathen sinning. How many truths does a person have to set aside and let go before they allow homosexuality to be a part of their lives? I imagine alot of the other sins listed there become ingrained upon a persons heart long before the bad touching starts.

that's the difference. Alot of sins are fleeting moments of weakness. Homosexuality is a lifestyle It involves a relationship with another homosexual person. This isn't somethign as simple as a weak moment in church where you spread a word of gossip, this is taking the God given creative force withen us and casting it aside to delve into carnal lusts of an obscene nature. This is beyond simply breaking the law of chastity.

And I never said to not be compassionate. I merely stated that no way in hell is a homosexual going to be a welcome member of a congregation while they persist in living in an openly rebellious state. It wold be the equivalent of a Bishop whose wife left him for cheating on her showing up to Church the following sunday with his mistress and sitting on the stand to continue to carry out his duties. Sin is Sin and wrong is wrong, and if declaring a sin is hurtful to the sinners feeling, well that's just too bad isn't it.

Gaz

Jersey Girl is right about the way Mormons study scripture. Take an isolated passage and use it to support preconceived beliefs.

Gaz, have you ever tried reading scripture not for the sake of finding damnation for others, but to apply it to yourself? And I don't mean, as in "thank god I'm not a homosexual," but maybe something like, "maybe I should work on not being implacable."

[_Gazelam]

Jersey Girl is right about the way Mormons study scripture. Take an isolated passage and use it to support preconceived beliefs.

Gaz, have you ever tried reading scripture not for the sake of finding damnation for others, but to apply it to yourself? And I don't mean, as in "thank god I'm not a homosexual," but maybe something like, "maybe I should work on not being implacable."

First of all, I did not take the Romans reference out of context. Jersey just said that to mess with me. We're friends, and friends take jabs at each other.

Second, It is impossible to study the gospel and not apply it to oneself. I could make a laundry list of the things I need to improve on in my personal life, it would be long and tedious reading. The same eye I use to judge the actions of others is the same eye I use to judge the thoughts, intentions, and actions of myself.

And lastly, I'm implacable because I'm right. The joy I find in this makes up for the aformentioned self loathing.

Gaz

[_The Nehor]

Jersey Girl is right about the way Mormons study scripture. Take an isolated passage and use it to support preconceived beliefs.

I can say you are wrong to say that ALL Mormons study Scripture that way as I do not. How many do I don't know, I hope it is very few.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Jersey Girl is right about the way Mormons study scripture. Take an isolated passage and use it to support preconceived beliefs.

Gaz, have you ever tried reading scripture not for the sake of finding damnation for others, but to apply it to yourself? And I don't mean, as in "thank god I'm not a homosexual," but maybe something like, "maybe I should work on not being implacable."

First of all, I did not take the Romans reference out of context. Jersey just said that to mess with me. We're friends, and friends take jabs at each other.

Second, It is impossible to study the gospel and not apply it to oneself. I could make a laundry list of the things I need to improve on in my personal life, it would be long and tedious reading. The same eye I use to judge the actions of others is the same eye I use to judge the thoughts, intentions, and actions of myself.

And lastly, I'm implacable because I'm right. The joy I find in this makes up for the aformentioned self loathing.

Gaz

Oh, I didn't see where in the scripture it said it was okay to be implacable if you are right, but I'm sure you can point it out.

Actually, you are not in the least bit "right." You are "self-righteous."

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Jersey Girl is right about the way Mormons study scripture. Take an isolated passage and use it to support preconceived beliefs.

I can say you are wrong to say that ALL Mormons study Scripture that way as I do not. How many do I don't know, I hope it is very few.

I said "ALL" Mormons? Actually, I try to avoid absolutes. I see no reason for you to infer "all" Mormons. However, it is the way scripture is studied in church. You have a lesson topic, say "eternal marriage," and then you have scriptures and quotes to support the LDS stance. That's not such a problem with the Book of Mormon, D&C and Book of Abraham, since they were all made up on the spot and haven't much history or context, but the Bible does have history and context which is generally never understood by Mormons (except for Nehor).

[_moksha]

Jersey just said that to mess with me. We're friends, and friends take jabs at each other.

Gaz

Sometimes they wrestle each other to the mat and apply an impossible to break toe-hold.... wait, this is getting too sexual.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Gaz, after reading the last couple of pages, i don't know whether i have what it takes to add more sense to this... But you asked me what i think about Romans... So here goes, my comments in bold:

Gazelam wrote:
Romans 1:21-32

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

RM: Sounds a lot like LDS folks often do. ie: "God" was a man & you too--if you're a "man" can be a "God"!

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

RM: Like a lot of us. Not limited to Mormons :-)

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

RM: Would this include 'mental' "image(s)"? of "God"...like to corruptible man..."?

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

RM: Would that include over indulgence in material stuff that rusts? What about over-eating to a state of obesity when told in the WoW to avoid meats and unhealthy stuff to consume mostly veggies & fruits??

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

RM: Like having "Domion over the whole earth" and "the divine right of Kings" and "superiority of some races" and "the more valiant in another life are more deserving of good-stuff in this one" and "pain & suffering are for one's own good" and "secret oaths & covenants are THE keys to exaltation, franchised only to "God's" favoured..."????

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

RM: Would that have been Jacob's mom who favoured Jake over his brother and lied to her husband and conived to take what belonged to Essau?

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

RM: Sounds a lot like warriors who leave home-&-hearth to kill in blood-lust and for the glory and spoils of battle... Man competing with man for honour and wealth: BOOTY!!

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

RM: Yep, sounds a lot like what makes for power, wealth, glory and the Celestial Kingdom where one increases status from mere man living by Christ's teachings of charity and serving the under privileged to Kingdoms and Glories unending...

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

RM: Sounds like the dysfunction that most of us function in...with varying degrees of success...

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

RM: Yep... Not pointing fingers...

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

RM: More dysfunction. Family violence. Child abuse. Spousal abuse. Social injustice. Expliotation. Agressions. War--collateral damage. Generally speaking, man's inhumanity. Spoken against by all Spiritual leaders of humanity...

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

RM: Who cannot be aware of death? All die, the good, bad and the indifferent. Most of us find pleasure with like-minds. The challenge is to weigh our "implacableness" with the principles of the "Two New Comandments" and when appropriate change company...

Gaz, i hope i have not disappointed you. But nowhere in the above passage from Romans did i read anything about fellation or cunnilingus. In fact no sex acts were mentioned at all.

Might it be to suggest Paul is referring to homosexuality diverts attention from those things--hate, greed, lusts, wars, deceits, etc--that really do wreck havok within humanity?

It is common to find scape-goats for conditions/events that we--our community/society--would rather not think ourselves to have part of the problem. Demon making is a craft of self righteous folks too often in denial of ever changing reality...

That there are others whose dark-glass clears is what moves us from the vices and ignorances of our predecessors into the wonders of "God's" world. When these "wonders" are more equitably shared across all human lines it will be by understanding higher laws. As it ever has been.

Homophobia is now ready to join the earth-centred-universe in the archives of social relics that at one time were considers "God's" truths. As i understand things... Warm regards, Roger

[_The Nehor]

Jersey Girl is right about the way Mormons study scripture. Take an isolated passage and use it to support preconceived beliefs.

I can say you are wrong to say that ALL Mormons study Scripture that way as I do not. How many do I don't know, I hope it is very few.

I said "ALL" Mormons? Actually, I try to avoid absolutes. I see no reason for you to infer "all" Mormons. However, it is the way scripture is studied in church. You have a lesson topic, say "eternal marriage," and then you have scriptures and quotes to support the LDS stance. That's not such a problem with the Book of Mormon, D&C and Book of Abraham, since they were all made up on the spot and haven't much history or context, but the Bible does have history and context which is generally never understood by Mormons (except for Nehor).

You are correct about my assumption, I mentally put an all in your statement, my mistake.

In response to the rest of your statement I have to laugh. No Church I know of uses a very different method of teaching. The Church does not have time to go deeply into history or context (I scratched the surface when I taught but that is all I had time for). The normal standard I hear is that we should spend at least a half hour a day in the scriptures and an hour on Sunday. That's 4 hours a week, 16 a month, and 204 a year. On average we spend less than 52 a year in study of the Scriptures collectively. If you're not learning the bulk of it outside Church you will never learn it. Most members I know are spending time expanding their understanding of all four of the Standard Works.