The Depressing Plan of Salvation

[_beastie]

Okay, do I have this correct then? She would rather be in a lower kingdom because the "plan" just doesn't feel right? IF so, then how does one quantify the differences between the kingdoms to determine whether this view is rational. I am, of course, not saying TD is irrational, just trying to understand the point.

She would rather be in a lower kingdom because she finds the whole premise morally objectionable.

Maybe this will help:

Perhaps there really does exist a godbeing who sends human beings to hell to fry for all eternity because they believed the wrong thing on this earth. If that being really does exist, I will choose not to worship and adore it, although it has so commanded, because I find it morally objectionable.

My feeling of moral offense at the idea of said godbeing, of course, has nothing to do with whether or not such a being exists - it has to do with my reaction towards it.

My rejection of the likelihood of the existence of such a being is an issue of logic outside of my personal feelings of disgust.

[_Gazelam]

Wanna have some fun?

Ask a mainstream christian what happens to people who die with out a knowledge of Christ and/or without baptism.

Chew on the answer they give you while reflecting in your mind on the doctrine of baptism for the dead.

[_huckelberry]

"a godbeing who sends people to hell to fry for all eternity because they choose to believe the wrong thing"

Because I believe the concept of such a godbeing is utterly false it makes me wonder how much influence the presence of this monstrous conception erases honest belief in God. I realize that there are other ways of conceiving of things not including a God so the question is not one simple consideration. Yet if God is actually our creator and giver of life such blind condemnation from God is in effect a picture of God contradicting Gods very intention in creation. The picture is a contradiction to God the creator making the combination an impossibilty. It is natural to not believe in something contradicting itself.

Myself, I do believe there is a possiblity of hell. I cannot even begin to imagine it being a boby prize in a contest of who has the right belief. Serious developed evil in a person could qualify. I could add I suspect evil qulaifing for hell is sufficiently cut off from the very principal of life that nonbeing is more likely its final destination.

[_Gazelam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufNAFVY0Ibo

[_Jersey Girl]

Wanna have some fun?

Ask a mainstream christian what happens to people who die with out a knowledge of Christ and/or without baptism.

Chew on the answer they give you while reflecting in your mind on the doctrine of baptism for the dead.

Doctrinally speaking, I wouldn't know what happens to people who die without a knowledge of Christ. Baptism isn't required for salvation. Please stop stereotyping people.

Next question?

[_truth dancer]

Hi Hoops...

Okay, do I have this correct then? She would rather be in a lower kingdom because the "plan" just doesn't feel right? IF so, then how does one quantify the differences between the kingdoms to determine whether this view is rational. I am, of course, not saying TD is irrational, just trying to understand the point.

Yes, Beastie got it right.

I do not want to be with, let alone worship, a God such is described by the LDS belief, or a God who designed such a plan.

And, I have no desire to be a Queen, Goddess, polygamous wife, or procreate for eternity. I don't like the idea of eternity as an extended form of Earth with the same issues including power, elitism, male dominance, degraded women who can't interact with their children, (and have to send some of them into OD), etc. etc. etc. The whole thing just isn't a place that sounds even remotely palatable let alone heavenly. A God of this heaven is not a God that I want to spend eternity with. The CKHL is just not a place in which I would like to visit, let alone spend eternity.

I think folks create God as a reflection of what they think is good (we have of course the stories of some men's dreams... power, authority, harems. etc), but personally, as I stated, if there is such place a place as heaven, my guess it is nothing like the images created by various men.

~dancer~
Thanks Beastie!

[_Ren]

without exception the mainstream Christians I have spoken with believe nearly everyone will be in heaven... only the really, REALLY horrible people (smile) will be in hell.

Your above comment is interesting to me. Without exception, the mainstream Christians I have spoken with interpret Matt. 7: 14 to mean the complete opposite of what they've told you.

This was my thought when reading this too Doc.
I've often asked about Ghandi being in hell. The answer - without fail - always seems to be wishy-washy enough to make it seem like a distinct possibility...!

Okay, do I have this correct then? She would rather be in a lower kingdom because the "plan" just doesn't feel right? IF so, then how does one quantify the differences between the kingdoms to determine whether this view is rational. I am, of course, not saying TD is irrational, just trying to understand the point.

I actually think the desire to NOT go to the Celestial Kindgom can be made to fit standard LDS belief. I distinctly remember the idea of 'spheres of creation', with individual creatures fitting naturally into their own 'sphere'. And that's how I always thought of the kingdoms as a TBM.
The way I understood it, the people who end up in the Terrestial and Telestial kingdoms would actually be happier there than they would in any other kingdom - because that was their natural 'sphere of creation'.
I don't know if there's official doctrinal backing for that notion, but when did that ever stop LDS speculation? :D

So - even as a TBM - I don't think I would have had any problem accepting truth dancer's motivations.
I feel pretty much the same way. It doesn't make one bit of difference whether Mormonism is 'true' or not. Either way, I have absolutely zero interest in going to the CK. None.
I want to be a 'God' over a world, where I have to start making commandments like:
"Thou shalt worship no other Gods before me. Oh and if you do, I'll have my other followers crack open your head" ...?!
...ermm - seriously. No thanks.

I just want a palm tree. By a beach. And a guitar. Ghandi on one side. Bob Marley on the other.
We'd just sit, chat, philosophise, joke, sing (I might even let Marley play now and again). That's my idea of heaven.
And yes - in my idea of heaven, Bob Marley and Ghandi want to hang out with me. Because I'm awesome. It's my heaven people!! ;)
(...oh - and a few token hot babes. I nearly forgot that...!)

You see, I have a real hard time imagining someone like Ghandi in the CK. WAY to authoritarian and 'power-structure' like for his tastes I'd wager...
And wherever Ghandi is (going to be...), I certainly deserve no better...

[_beastie]

"a godbeing who sends people to hell to fry for all eternity because they choose to believe the wrong thing"

Because I believe the concept of such a godbeing is utterly false it makes me wonder how much influence the presence of this monstrous conception erases honest belief in God. I realize that there are other ways of conceiving of things not including a God so the question is not one simple consideration. Yet if God is actually our creator and giver of life such blind condemnation from God is in effect a picture of God contradicting Gods very intention in creation. The picture is a contradiction to God the creator making the combination an impossibilty. It is natural to not believe in something contradicting itself.

Myself, I do believe there is a possiblity of hell. I cannot even begin to imagine it being a boby prize in a contest of who has the right belief. Serious developed evil in a person could qualify. I could add I suspect evil qulaifing for hell is sufficiently cut off from the very principal of life that nonbeing is more likely its final destination.

I can't speak for other people (although I've read Jen's mind on this thread pretty well ;) but this concept didn't erase honest belief in God in me. I just used it to demonstrate what I believed Jen was saying - her dislike of the LDS plan of salvation doesn't qualify as proof of its truth or falsehood, just like someone's good feelings about the plan of salvation doesn't qualify as proof of its truth or falsehood either. Our feelings about how we would LIKE the world to be really has nothing to do with how the world IS. This is something that theists often get confused about when discussing God with atheists. In fact, the majority of their arguments are a version of them saying "but I don't like the idea of a world without God". Ok, you may not like it, just like I may not like the idea of a god who would burn his children's flesh for eternity, or Jen may not like the CK, but our like or dislike of it has nothing to do with whether or not it is factually correct.

A god could exist who is actually quite malicious - and, in fact, given the nature of the world, I think this is a more logical god to believe in than one who is all good and loving.

The main reason I don't believe in god is because this world supposedly WITH god looks exactly like this world WITHOUT god would look like, so god is an entirely extraneous, unnecessary, and complicating factor. Occam's razor, more or less. Why add an additional, very complicated factor when it's not necessary?

by the way, I live in a very conservative evangelical area, and sadly, there are quite a few people who believe God will send people to hell to suffer for all eternity if they believe the wrong thing, or don't believe the right thing. And these people are otherwise usually good, decent, and kind human beings. I remember, years ago, talking to a coworker (who wanted to save me after I left Mormonism), who explained how she and her mother cried and cried because they knew her brother would burn in hell for all eternity, but, in the end, they can accept it because they trust god.

I know this is not a popular idea in other mainstream religions or other parts of the country, but round 'chere, it's popular. And I can't help but notice that, sometimes, some preachers seem to invoke a sense of future enjoyment at the idea of seeing the people who currently view their beliefs as backward and stupid burning in hell one day. It's the ultimate NEENER NEENER NEENER moment. Ha, ha, you thought I was stupid, but I was RIGHT!

[_truth dancer]

To elaborate just a bit on the heaven/hell idea...

The friends I have who are of mainstream Christian belief, have the idea that God will judge people according to their heart, that hell is reserved for the truly evil, that people will be judged on what knowledge they have, etc. etc. Maybe my friends are more liberal or something? Or maybe they have found a way to let go of the dogmatic, icky stuff? ;-)

A while ago, there was a documentary on TV about heaven and hell, it was actually pretty informative. The reporter interviewed several different representatives of various religions... I think Billy Graham's son (If I recall correctly), was one of the Christians who described heaven from his perspective. I remember his description as a very loving place. He indicated that only a few would be sent to hell, but I suppose in Chistianity there are a wide range of believers as there is in other religions.

RoP... I too have heard the LDS view that those who do not want to be in the CK will be happier in some other "Kindgom."

Hence, my comment that I am not one of the chosen! :-) I'm totally fine with not being in the CKHL. It seriously sounds pretty horrible to me!

~dancer~

[_Ren]

Maybe my friends are more liberal or something? Or maybe they have found a way to let go of the dogmatic, icky stuff? ;-)

Maybe :)
Let me put it this way - I think I've asked the question probably 5 odd times online - to different non-LDS Christians regarding Ghandi and hell.
I think pretty much everytime, the reply is in two parts:

1. It is not they who judges, it is God. So they can't give a definitive answer.
2. While Ghandi may seem good by my mortal standards, is he good by God's standards?

This is where Ghandi's odds aren't looking so "hot" - to me at least...
Maybe the general consensus is different in the 'real world'...!

RoP... I too have heard the LDS view that those who do not want to be in the CK will be happier in some other "Kindgom."

Ahh. Glad to hear that. I was kinda suspicious I might have just made it up all by my self-ish...

Hence, my comment that I am not one of the chosen! :-) I'm totally fine with not being in the CKHL. It seriously sounds pretty horrible to me!

Here here. Come visit me, Ghandi and Marley under my palm tree whenever you like. I can't say for sure whether it's gonna be the Terrestial or Telestial yet - I haven't really decided which one I should really aim for. (Not even considering whether I'll make it in...) All I know is that the CK is out. And OD - well - good for a bit of reflection, but I'm sure the novelty wears off pretty quick...!