God and a fraud?

[_beastie]

I'm with TD!

MG, it's only because you believe in it that you find the sealings and promises of godhood of greater magnitude than any other religious claim. Any "one true" religion could make the same genre of claim, albeit with different details. Why, only scientology offers human beings a process through which to rid themselves of the disabling influence of thetans! Only JW offers the steps through which one may become one of the 40,000!!!

This is the entire problem with your reasoning on this thread. You simply cannot step outside of your belief long enough to fairly and logically evaluate your own premise. As I pointed out before, your first step is "IF the LDS church is a fraud"...then what would God do. You mess up on that first step because you're not able to set aside your own belief long enough to follow through.

For all you know, God doesn't give a rat's patootie about the individual details of religious stories. He may consider them all human stories that do the best they can to grasp his reality, but since humans simply can't get to that reality, all we can do is approximate it. God may not care about the differences between the approximations at all.

The only reason you can't imagine a reason God would allow the Mormon church to exist if it isn't exactly what it claims to be is due to your inability to step outside of your belief to try to do so. Otherwise, it's very easy to imagine reasons God would allow a fraudulent Mormon church to exist.

[_mentalgymnast]

Hi MG...

If the LDS church is a fraud, I personally cannot conceptualize of a god that would let it go. Truth claims such as sealings for eternity and the continuation of the seeds, promises of eternal life in the highest level of the celestial kingdom of God, becoming gods, and so forth are high and mighty claims. No other church makes these unique claims. This is what I was referring to when I used the descriptor word, "magnitude". If god was to let these claims continue on unnoticed or unremediated and reinforced in the temples...I would have to bag the whole idea of god.

(bold mine)

This is what baffles me MG! :-)

Have you read anything about the truth claims in Islam? How about the Egyptians?

How about the Eastern teaching that we ARE GOD? That is a pretty extraordinary idea don't you think? Upwards of a billion people embrace this idea.

TD, you're well aware that the church teaches that all truth is part of one great whole. The claim of the church is that it is the repository of ALL truth necessary to enable a person to receive all that God has. Jesus Christ is THE way, THE truth, and THE light. The gospel is the means to bring a person salvation in the kingdom of God. Gospel ordinances put individuals on the path towards salvation. Temple ordinances put individuals on the path towards exaltation.

Yes, all religions contain bits and pieces of the great mosaic I referred to earlier.

I just got back from church and sitting in a high priest's quorum and teaching a primary class. There is a hidden factor/element in all of this that we tend to shy away from...so I won't. There is a spirit that comes along with living the gospel. Doing the basics. Prayer, scripture reading, church attendance, tithing, serving, obeying the commandments, being chaste, home and visiting teaching, etc. Jesus said if you want to know if the doctrine is true, live it. My heart tells me that the LDS church is THE WAY. All other arguments and reasons to push that aside become somewhat moot when the spirit touches your heart. It did at church again today. Most of those here at one time or another have felt that. You may have forgotten it or rationalized it away, but nonetheless felt it. The spirit leads to Christ.

Sometimes from many directions and along many different paths.

It's that spirit that the disaffected are missing. That may be part of what keeps those individuals coming back to things Mormon. They have a hard time letting go of what was once theirs. This may be part of the reason we see them hanging around these boards, and even starting them up. There is something besides community/culture/antagonism pulling them back. Something missing that was once there and theirs and now it's not.

The church is either true or it isn't. The stuff I said in the first paragraph of this post is either true or not. It is that simple. There is no halfway.

Regards,
MG

[_beastie]

The church is either true or it isn't. The stuff I said in the first paragraph of this post is either true or not. It is that simple. There is no halfway.

Well, the church is either exactly what it claims to be or it isn't.

But even if the church is what it claims to be, your primary argument on this thread still could be incorrect, and I think it would be. God has allowed many religious frauds to exist throughout all time, if he exists, and each makes some sort of unique claim, embedded in their own story.

Every poster on this board knows that the most important reason LDS believers believe is due to some experience that they believe was god telling them the church is true. All these other arguments, including the one you have constructed in this thread, are simply to help believers feel good about their belief, in terms of reconciling it with the logical side of their mind. Of course, the problem with using the spiritual witness alone to justify belief to critics is that believers across the realm of category of belief have experienced these numinous events. They then attach the numinous event to the particular ideas about religion they had at that given moment. But, to outsiders, it seems clear that the numinous events must be unattached to particular ideas, because they occur in association with so many ideas that are fundamentally contradictory.

[_mentalgymnast]

The church is either true or it isn't. The stuff I said in the first paragraph of this post is either true or not. It is that simple. There is no halfway.

Well, the church is either exactly what it claims to be or it isn't.

I suppose you could say the same thing about scientology. And if scientology "offers human beings a process through which to rid themselves of the disabling influence of thetans" I'd be hard pressed to disregard such a promise as that!

Regards,
MG

[_beastie]

I suppose you could say the same thing about scientology. And if scientology "offers human beings a process through which to rid themselves of the disabling influence of thetans" I'd be hard pressed to disregard such a promise as that!

Indeed. Perhaps it is your own personal thetan that keeps you trapped in the LDS church! (from a scientologist's POV, of course, I think thetans are much more friendly than the scientologists present them to be ;)

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

TD, you're well aware that the church teaches that all truth is part of one great whole. The claim of the church is that it is the repository of ALL truth necessary to enable a person to receive all that God has. Jesus Christ is THE way, THE truth, and THE light. The gospel is the means to bring a person salvation in the kingdom of God. Gospel ordinances put individuals on the path towards salvation. Temple ordinances put individuals on the path towards exaltation.

Yes, but numerous belief systems throughout the world teach they have THE way, THE truth, and THE light. Trust me on this... the LDS church is NOT the only one!

Seriously MG, you do not seem to grasp the idea that the truth claims of the LDS church are not exclusive in terms of their magnitude! :-)

I just got back from church and sitting in a high priest's quorum and teaching a primary class. There is a hidden factor/element in all of this that we tend to shy away from...so I won't. There is a spirit that comes along with living the gospel. Doing the basics. Prayer, scripture reading, church attendance, tithing, serving, obeying the commandments, being chaste, home and visiting teaching, etc. Jesus said if you want to know if the doctrine is true, live it.

FOR YOU... I bet billions of people would say differently.

I do think many people feel a beautiful sense of peace (holiness, goodness, love, comfort, etc. etc.) when then meditate, quiet their minds, participate in nature, help others, find moments of stillness, participate in service activities, lift up their hearts in prayer, participate in their religious rituals, praise God in song, etc. etc. The LDS church again does not have exclusive rights to these lovely feelings and please don't go with the idea that these feelings are "better" in the LDS church! (smile)

My heart tells me that the LDS church is THE WAY.

Just like billions of others feel in their hearts, THEIR way is THE way. :-)

All other arguments and reasons to push that aside become somewhat moot when the spirit touches your heart.

I think this is that to which most members hold on. Nothing else much matters if they feel good about their experience.

Most of those here at one time or another have felt that.

Yes.

You may have forgotten it or rationalized it away, but nonetheless felt it. The spirit leads to Christ.

Well this is where I need to disagree! :-)

I certainly do remember all the lovely feelings/HG... but they are no way exclusive to the LDS church, and there are many times where my personal "inspiration/revelation" clearly conflicts with the teachings of the LDS church. in my opinion, the feeling is not about a religious belief but about goodness, care, and kindness, compassion, etc.... found all over the world.

In addition, that feeling is found in all sorts of places, in all sorts of religions, in all sorts of belief systems and personal ideals.

It's that spirit that the disaffected are missing.

Ohhh I have a very difficult time with this idea for obvious reasons.

Even as a believing member I struggled with the eliticism that is in this idea. As if only the LDS members have the HG, or goodness, or spirit of the divine, or a sense of peace and holiness. I just do not see it, have never felt this, cannot imagine it, nor find it a holy teaching.

That may be part of what keeps those individuals coming back to things Mormon.

This makes NO sense whatsoever.

Do you think those who leave Scientology don't return because they forgot the feeling? Or have lost the spirit of truth? How about those who leave the Amish, or FLDS, or Ralians?

They have a hard time letting go of what was once theirs.

What does this mean?

in my opinion, many former believers had a difficult time realizing that what they once believed is not true... accepting this is for some, not an easy thing.

This may be part of the reason we see them hanging around these boards, and even starting them up. There is something besides community/culture/antagonism pulling them back. Something missing that was once there and theirs and now it's not.

MG... seriously you have got to let go of this nonsense.

I know it is what is taught but really, it is silliness.

Again, do you think those who leaves Scientology and participate on message boards do so because they know Scientology is true? Or have some spirit pulling them back? Or feel something wonderful is missing from their lives? How about former FLDS folks? How about former followers of Jim Jones? We could go on and on.

Really MG... think about this. Listen to those who are telling you why they still are involved in LDS related things. Just open your heart and listen. Let go of the myth that LDS folks still hold some sort of belief, or whatever. It is just plain not true. You hold to this in spite of all evidence, in spite of not one former believer telling you this is true, in spite of any rational thought. I wonder if you hold to it because it makes you feel better? Or maybe it helps you remain a believer? Does it give you a sense of being right?

I'm not sure.

~dancer~

[_mentalgymnast]

Hi MG...

TD, you're well aware that the church teaches that all truth is part of one great whole. The claim of the church is that it is the repository of ALL truth necessary to enable a person to receive all that God has. Jesus Christ is THE way, THE truth, and THE light. The gospel is the means to bring a person salvation in the kingdom of God. Gospel ordinances put individuals on the path towards salvation. Temple ordinances put individuals on the path towards exaltation.

Yes, but numerous belief systems throughout the world teach they have THE way, THE truth, and THE light. Trust me on this... the LDS church is NOT the only one!

The church is either true or it isn't...It is that simple. There is no halfway.

Well, the church is either exactly what it claims to be or it isn't.

TD, do you agree with Beastie's statement?

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

TD, do you agree with Beastie's statement?

Beastie's statement:

Well, the church is either exactly what it claims to be or it isn't.

The LDS church leaders have stated that the church is either what it claims to be or it is not... In other words, they seem to think that the church is either the one and only way or it is not.

So, I agree that this is what the church leaders (and many believers), seem to believe and definitely teach.

And I agree that if the church isn't exactly what it claims then it is not exactly what it claims, which means it is not. :-)

Now if the claims were somewhat different, there wouldn't be quite such a problem. :-)

I have often said that if the church taught that it was "A" way to live a holy life, I would have no problem, (not that I would be a believer but still... smile). The idea that it is the one and only way presents a whole other situation!

I think many religious groups, faith traditions, and belief systems teach healthy and holy ideals.

I believe there are good teachings in the LDS church as there are in most religions of which I am aware.

~dancer~

[_mentalgymnast]

Hi MG...

TD, do you agree with Beastie's statement?

Beastie's statement:

Well, the church is either exactly what it claims to be or it isn't.

The LDS church leaders have stated that the church is either what it claims to be or it is not... In other words, they seem to think that the church is either the one and only way or it is not.

So, I agree that this is what the church leaders (and many believers), seem to believe and definitely teach.

And I agree that if the church isn't exactly what it claims then it is not exactly what it claims, which means it is not. :-)

So we're down to two choices. The LDS church is what it claims to be or it is not.

If it is what it claims to be then:

-There is a God and we are created in his image.

-God has called prophets throughout history and has called them in our day to reveal his will.

-Baptism is the gateway ordinance to god's heavenly kingdom and a sin cleansing opportunity to make the atonement of Jesus Christ effective in our lives.

-Temple ordinances are gateways to a path that can lead to exaltation.

-Jesus is the Son of God and is the head of the LDS church and gives revelations to direct and guide the saints.

-We have a greater understanding of Jesus' atonement and can make it more effective in our lives.

-The Plan of Happiness in not a man made construct. It truly is a plan of happiness.

-All of the blessings of heaven are available to those that obey all of God's commandments.

-We are able to know what God's will is and apply it in our lives.

-We can have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide us in the path of truth and benefit from his role as comforter.

-We are able to obtain a greater understanding concerning pre-earth life and post mortal life.

-We are able to exercise and receive the blessings of the priesthood.

-We are able to make covenants and receive promised blessings.

-And so on...

If it isn't what it claims to be then:

-Choose whatever lifestyle or belief system you desire, it doesn't matter. Whatever fits your needs and floats your boat...or make it up as you go along, if you want.

If these are the two choices and there is a plausibility that one of them will:

1. Bring my family and I more opportunities for blessings within Christ's church.
2. Give a greater understanding of God and his attributes.
3. Help me understand what eternal life and progress entails and what I need to do to obtain it.
4. Increase understanding of the purpose of life and how Jesus Christ fits into the whole scheme of things.
5. Bring a greater degree of happiness in the here and now through obedience to God's commandments.
6. Provide correct teachings/principles without being blown around by every wind of doctrine.

...then I'll take that one.

This is about all the time I have to invest in this thread for now. A new and busy workweek is coming. If others want to pick it up, fine. It's been fun and thanks for playing!

Also, I may not have much time in the near future to post much. Two jobs, remodeling projects going on here in our home, etc.

It's been fun. Thanks Beastie and TD especially. I enjoy having to push the envelope in my thinking, however meager the actual results are...<g>

Thanks Shades for providing the opportunity to play in your sandbox.

Be nice to each other!

Take care,
MG

[_harmony]

So we're down to two choices. The LDS church is what it claims to be or it is not.

Well, we're down to more than that. God is not bound by the LDS church, MG. God is still God, even if Joseph lied.