FAIR releases online videos

[_truth dancer]

Just wondering out loud here...

Do you think if the bones were carbon dated and found NOT to be supportive of Book of Mormon horses, and indeed predated Book of Mormon times by thousands of years, FARMS would publish this information?

~dancer~

[_beastie]

CAKid, thanks so much!

Here's another book that mentions the Loltun Caves. It appears from this source that the Mercer remains were actually found to be the modern horse.

In regards to Hatt, although I'm at a disadvantage due to a page being omitted from the review, Schmidt has divided the cave into levels, and the animal remains were at the "bottom" of the ceramic level and in the preceramic level immediately under it. That makes a shifting or mistaken strata identification more likely, it would seem to me.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... ns&source=
web&ots=fgCOKY7ncX&sig=XA2goBoYAZ7_Z65EyGj6-hr1Knw#PPA263,M1

[_beastie]

This is very pertinent, in my opinion:

The use of caves by the ancient Maya has been previously documented, but the nature of artifact preservation in these caves presents unique problems not encountered in surface sites of the region. The absence of stratigraphy, though it means that we can view objects as they were left by the Maya, also means that perspective can be distorted, for actions that may have taken place over a long period of time result in an arrangement of objects that appears to us to be synchronic. The nature of artifact preservation in caves presents another, more pressing problem: artifacts are accessible and therefore easily stolen. Although all surface sites in Belize are endangered, cave sites are especially so, and in recent years theft of artifacts and attendant destruction of sites has increased. The following is a report of excavations in a cave that is one of many in an area that has begun to experience the destructive effects of looting within the last decade. We hope that this report will heighten the awareness of archaeologists of the significance of cave sites and stimulate interest in the reconnaissance and recording of such sites before the looters prevail.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0093-4690(198022)7%3A2%3C153%3AEIFCCB%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U

[_beastie]

I'm piecing together more bits from the previously cited book with omitted pages. A different search of the same book states that Level VII is Pleistocene. That is the level with the horse remains.

I'm thinking that this indicates that the earlier research was either distorted or simply mistaken in terms of asserting the horse remains were mingled with ceramics.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... =PA285&dq=
loltun+caves+schmidt&source=web&ots=fgCOKY9s9U&sig=l0LqJbOb9ghuDlWNnPol65uCnW8

[_CaliforniaKid]

I'm piecing together more bits from the previously cited book with omitted pages. A different search of the same book states that Level VII is Pleistocene. That is the level with the horse remains.

I'm thinking that this indicates that the earlier research was either distorted or simply mistaken in terms of asserting the horse remains were mingled with ceramics.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... =PA285&dq=
loltun+caves+schmidt&source=web&ots=fgCOKY9s9U&sig=l0LqJbOb9ghuDlWNnPol65uCnW8

I read somewhere that the first humans around to Mesoamerica at the tail end of the Pleistocene. Of course, I don't know if such people were capable of making ceramics. But if they were, I suppose there could be some kind of human/pre-exitinction-conversidens overlap.

[_Tarski]

Horse bones appear on the upper 5 levels and are mixed with pottery shards. Carbon dates in these levels are from 1800BC to 400BC. (See my last post or the link below) It seems these findings are in the works of being published and arnt out yet.

This old chestnut again? Its always "in the works" isn't it?
I predict that nothing is really in the works, but we will keep hearing that it is. I have heard that promise for --- what? maybe three years now?

Look, trying to sew the seeds of doubt against science for religious purposes, and based on bald statements with no real references (or Hester mess up if forced), is just dishonest.

The only honest statement is that equine archeology is quite solid, and we have every reason to conclude that horses did not exist in supposed Book of Mormon times, and no reason to think they did. Wishful thinking and a bit of dishonesty is all they have. What does that tell you about the religion that they must resort to such tactics? They should hire master ignoramus Kent Hovind to do some of their arguing. He uses the same style--say whatever it takes to make the believers doubt the science just enough to have an excuse to keep their cherished non-evidence based beliefs. (Oh but Hovind is in prison now--oh well)
Archeologists are NOT finding horse remains that they don't know what to do with!! (CFR!!!)
There is a real and gigantic disconnect between the Book of Mormon and new world archeology. It would be huge even without the horse thing.


PS: Hester is not the messiah that saves Mormons from the horse problems, he was a minor figure who messed up on a horse bone dating once. The incident is known for being a bungle.

[_Doctor Steuss]

Tarski is back. Hu-zah!

Your posts have been missed.

[_Sethbag]

TARSKI!

:D

ps: I'm not worthy...

[_Zakuska]

So, zak, let's return to TD's question. Would you insist on carbon dating for a dinosaur bone she happened upon in her backyard?

Why would we consider them dinosaur bones? Mercer and Hatt didn't. Only the 3 teeth originally found on the surface, were said to be mineralized.

[_Zakuska]

Here's a reference to the Loltun caves:

http://books.google.com/books?id=VLTy_m ... ins&source
=web&ots=9xdLGbqlE6&sig=7BfewBXK6KN-_AqFPpNCqZHYxzI

Currently only one site in Mesoamerica supports the hypothesis of human occupation in lowland environments before 12,000 years ago. In the Puuc Hills of Northern Yucatan, the lowest levels of excavations reported by R. Velazquez at Loltun Cave have produced some crude stone and bone tools along with the remains of horse, mastodon, and other now extinct Pleistocene mammals. Felines, deer, and numerous rodents round out the archaeological assemblage. No radiocarbon dates have been forthcoming for this proposed early components that underlies later ceramic occupations. On the basis of stone tool typology and faunal association, MacNeish has proposed that the lower levels of Loltun Cave are somewhere between 40,000 and 15,000 years old.

I would say this reference presents another possibility: the earlier archaeologists were simply mistaken.

Why? Even the original Archeologists didn't claim dates on these things. They did do carbon dating on the "Upper Levels" VII and above is where the horse material where found.