A few questions for Shulem

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_Themis
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Themis »

Kerry

Do we have better answers than our critics? Unabashedly yes.


MG you should know enough now to understand Kerry is being very very dishonest. Your quote of Kerry is filled with dishonestly and avoidance of the issues. It's written to help members who want to think someone who knows a lot more then me believes so you shouldn't stop believing.
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_Philo Sofee
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Muhlestein stupidly admitted in public published information (somewhere, maybe someone can find the link) that his entire method is to simply search for stuff that confirms Joseph Smith's interpretations and leave out all the other stuff. A more blatant form of fallacious confirmation bias cannot be written! He automatically from the get go gets an "F" on everything he writes because of his genuinely faulty method that will never leave us the wiser or more knowledgable. Everything the man writes will be questionable.

That is why we don't bother with him. He has already decided the truth and only forces evidence to fit his conclusion. That ain't scholarship, that's apologetics. No Egyptologist will ever agree with his tripe for that reason alone.
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_Sanctorian
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Sanctorian »

MG says

I am not opposed to whatever the truth might be at all... As far as "bowing out", it's not like you can continue in a discussion with an expert if you're not up to par with that expert. I readily admitted I'm not an expert on the Book of Abraham.


I want to find out more, and read more about the Book of Abraham. Like I said, this is one area that I haven't studied as deeply as some others. Should I simply take Paul's word for it that Fac.3 is the 'smoking gun'? I don't think that would be wise. If I was convinced through deeper study that he has the upper hand over Kerry Muhlestein, Gee, and others (can you recommend other good researchers out there?) then I would have some adjustments to make. I am not at that place. How do I know, for a fact, that others here on this isolated board in the universe of boards/forums have actually given the time and effort to look at all the evidence, including those somewhat complex arguments for antiquity given by Muhlestein and Co.?


Let’s read between the lines. MG has the ultimate out every time. Basically, he’s no expert and can never become an expert on any subject including facsimile 3. People like Kerry will always be a level above him and they maintain their belief. That’s good enough for MG to default to belief. That’s why he’s out of his league on this and every subject but defaults to belief.

I'm gonna ask you to look away
I love my hands, but it hurts to pray
Life I have isn't what I've seen
The sky is not blue and the field's not green


PS. Shulem is quite hilarious in his posting style and a master at letting the MG’isms roll off his back.
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_Shulem
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:Muhlestein stupidly admitted in public published information (somewhere, maybe someone can find the link) that his entire method is to simply search for stuff that confirms Joseph Smith's interpretations and leave out all the other stuff. A more blatant form of fallacious confirmation bias cannot be written! He automatically from the get go gets an "F" on everything he writes because of his genuinely faulty method that will never leave us the wiser or more knowledgable. Everything the man writes will be questionable.

That is why we don't bother with him. He has already decided the truth and only forces evidence to fit his conclusion. That ain't scholarship, that's apologetics. No Egyptologist will ever agree with his tripe for that reason alone.
Perhaps, I'll comment on clown Muhlestein later. Here is a Philo Sofee thread worth bookmarking:

LDS Egyptologist Muhlestein on Facsimile 3

http://mormondiscussions.com//viewtopic ... &p=1058324

Here is Kevin Graham's thread worth bookmarking:

Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap

http://mormondiscussions.com//viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43523

Enjoy
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_Bret Ripley
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Bret Ripley »

mentalgymnast wrote:I know Kerry Muhlestein is an expert and an Egyptologist ... Kerry Muhlestein's paper I linked to above ...
Being an Egyptologist doesn't seem to be particularly helpful in terms of drilling down to the nature of Smith's translation. From the paper you linked (emphasis added):
Kerry Muhlestein wrote:Joseph identifies certain people in Facsimile 3 and points out that their names are indicated by the hieroglyphs over their heads. As I translate these hieroglyphs, they do not match Joseph’s interpretations.
As others have already suggested, Muhlestein's Book of Abraham defenses do not spring naturally from his area of expertise (Egyptology) -- in fact, his Book of Abraham apologetics require that he discount how he understands the papyri as an Egyptologist.
_moksha
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _moksha »

Celestial Room at the Reformed Egyptian Temple of Amarna:

https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/110/images/87938-3-1510935262.jpg

How could Dr. Hugh Nibley have known unless he caught a glimpse of this splendor while decked out in Reformed Egyptian garb or was introduced to the mysteries by the Rosicrucians?

Through the Veil:

https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/110/images/87938-4-1510935386.jpg
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Kerry Muhlestein wrote:there are many concepts having to do with the Book of Abraham that we are still trying to understand. Do we currently have all the answers? Certainly not. Do we have better answers than our critics? Unabashedly yes. Do we understand as much as we would like? No, and this is part of why we are in such an intensive study of the Book of Abraham.

More nonsense.

Let's make this simple.

THE ONLY PEOPLE HAVING DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM ARE THOSE TRYING TO DEFEND IT.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_fetchface
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _fetchface »

Fence Sitter wrote:THE ONLY PEOPLE HAVING DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM ARE THOSE TRYING TO DEFEND IT.

Amen. Another way of putting it is that I have exactly the same difficulty understanding the Book of Abraham as I do understanding The Record of Rajah Manchou of Vorito. I easily understand that the evidence is overwhelming for both that they are obvious fraud.

Do I need to explain every little blip in the story of the Book of Abraham? No. I just need to understand that Facsimile 3 is unexplainable outside of the obvious explanation of fraud. That's the same consideration I give to Strang's work. If (hypothetically) God requires me to explain every little part of blip in the story to discount fraud, then I really need to do this for every fraudster who ever lived. I can't just privilege things that Joseph Smith produced. I have to investigate every aspect of James Strang's work, and David Koresh, and Jim Jones, and .... ad infinitum and explain that there is no possibility that they could possibly be true, even with the most convoluted "what if" Trickster-God scenarios, which is what it takes to explain the Book of Abraham.

I don't have enough time for that and, frankly, I have too much self-respect. If God really wants to reach me, he knows where to find me. (Free tip for God: if you do want to communicate with me, don't do so through stories that look like obvious fraud! <<Cough Cough Book of Abraham>>)
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_Shulem
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Shulem »

mentalgymnast wrote:OK, here's the thing. Studies of the Book of Abraham have produced a treasure trove of research and information.

Reliable information about the Book of Abraham translation and so forth is obtained by Egyptologists who work within the established framework of acceptable international Egyptological academic scholarship. Anything else may be considered speculative and suspect like the works of Muhlestein published in religious journals controlled by BYU.

mentalgymnast wrote:The fact is, there is a lot we know and a lot we don't know in full.

The fact is we know everything there is to know about the hieroglyphs contained in Facsimile No. 3 and exactly how to translate them. We know the persons in the Facsimile and exactly how to identify them. All of this, however, is contrary to what Joseph Smith said about the hieroglyphs and the persons therein. The fact is there is no king's name therein and no royal cartouche to even suggest there is a name. Muhlestein knows that and there isn't a thing he can do to produce a king's name.

mentalgymnast wrote:The research is wonderfully complex with all kind of convoluted answers from both the critics and the apologists.

The hieroglyphs contained in Facsimile No. 3 are easily understood and commonly read in other literary text, such as in tombs, monuments, and funerary papyri. There is nothing complex in the text nor in recognizing the persons in Facsimile No. 3 for who they are. It's like the A,B.C's of the Egyptian religion which we have come to appreciate in modern times. In general, Egyptologists are not critics of Joseph Smith's translations. They generally ignore the matter because Smith's translations are blatant works of fraud and they don't want to waste their time talking about it. Egyptologists work within the framework of science.

mentalgymnast wrote: I know Kerry Muhlestein is an expert and an Egyptologist

No doubt he is an expert and his work is probably very good when it operates within the framework of credible Egyptology. Credible Egyptology is judged on an international level by a vast collective of scholarship, universities, and Egyptologists such as Ritner.

mentalgymnast wrote:How do I know, for a fact, that others here on this isolated board in the universe of boards/forums have actually given the time and effort to look at all the evidence, including those somewhat complex arguments for antiquity given by Muhlestein and Co.?

Muhlestein and Co. are crooked apologists who apply a biased slant in a vain attempt to make their client (The Book of Abraham Translation) appear innocent. Muhlestein and Co. don't publish their apologetic arguments in credible Egyptological peer reviewed journals. Their work does not represent credible Egyptology on an international level. Muhlestein and Co are rogue BYU operators who distort, twist, and create apologetic quips for the Book of Abraham. If they really had something valid and important to say about defending Smith's translations they would be publishing that in peer related journals and soak up the glory while they bask in the light.
_Shulem
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Shulem »

Muhlestein wrote:there are many concepts having to do with the Book of Abraham that we are still trying to understand

Knock yourself out, Muhlestein! While you're at it, what's the king's name in Fig. 2 and where is the royal cartouche?

Muhlestein wrote: Do we currently have all the answers? Certainly not.

Like what's the king’s name in Fig. 2?

Muhlestein wrote: Do we have better answers than our critics? Unabashedly yes.

Who are your critics, fellow Egyptologists? Do you mean to say that "King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head" is a better answer than "Isis the great, the god's mother"? Is that what you are saying?

Muhlestein wrote:Do we understand as much as we would like? No, and this is part of why we are in such an intensive study of the Book of Abraham.

I get that you don't understand as much as you would like. All the intensive study in the world is not going to create a king’s name in Fig. 2., ever.

Muhlestein wrote:There are so many things we want to understand and so many fruitful avenues of research.

Wouldn't it be great for LDS apologists if they could read a king's name in Fig. 2 as easily as Smith read the names Shulem and Olimlah in Fig 5 & 6? It would be like picking fruit right off the Facsimile!

Muhlestein wrote:I expect that I will spend my life trying to better understand this wonderfully complex book and its accompanying story.

And never know the name of the king!

Muhlestein wrote:Will questions arise in the future for which we will not immediately have answers?

The questions have already been asked and answered.

Muhlestein wrote:Are there questions that arise from the facsimiles that I cannot explain now? Yes.

You can't explain them now and you never will.
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