LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

[Res Ipsa]

Hey Ceebs, what do you mean by "all of it?" Does that include every scripture in the Old Testament?

Hey RI,

Yes, Old Testament included (flood, mauling bear, talking snake, horrific wars, Noah, Adam and Eve, talking snake - All of it)

So, do you live the law of Moses as set out in the Old Testament?

[ceeboo]

Hey RI,

Yes, Old Testament included (flood, mauling bear, talking snake, horrific wars, Noah, Adam and Eve, talking snake - All of it)

I think the example you cited, making days a metaphor for however much time you need, is a technique that can be used to arbitrarily pick and choose what to follow and what to ignore.

For example many churches cite a specific verse to justify no music being allowed at church. Paul says women cannot teach at church. Tons of churches ignore these, but cling to the equally unimportant anti LGBT verses.

I don't see it that way, but I certainly allow you to see it the way you do.

[ceeboo]

So, do you live the law of Moses as set out in the Old Testament?

No, the old covenant has passed away and is now obsolete. Christians are under the New Covenant. A few examples from scripture:


Jeremiah 11:10
International Standard Version
10 They have turned back to the iniquities of their ancestors of old[a] who refused to listen to my words. They followed other gods to serve them. The house of Israel and the house of Judah broke my covenant which I made with their ancestors.”
The New Covenant

2 Corinthians 3:14
International Standard Version
14 However, their minds were hardened, for to this day the same veil is still there when they read the old covenant. Only in union with the Messiah[a] is that veil removed.

Hebrews 8:7
International Standard Version
The New Covenant is Better than the Old
7 If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one,

Luke 22:20
He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant sealed by my blood, which is being poured out for you

[drumdude]

I think the example you cited, making days a metaphor for however much time you need, is a technique that can be used to arbitrarily pick and choose what to follow and what to ignore.

For example many churches cite a specific verse to justify no music being allowed at church. Paul says women cannot teach at church. Tons of churches ignore these, but cling to the equally unimportant anti LGBT verses.

I don't see it that way, but I certainly allow you to see it the way you do.

I do think that LGBT clergy and marriages are a bridge too far for a ton of Christians, and that doesn’t make them bigots. It’s just where we are culturally as a country right now.

People have tended to soften their views over time and although right now it looks impossible, I think they’ll soften on these issues too eventually. But I could definitely be wrong, past results are not indications of future performance.

[drumdude]

That article from January 2023 is outdated. It says the 6% drop due to the LGBT policy was lower than expected.

Here's the updated information from January of this year:

https://www.churchleadership.com/leadin ... ist-church



If 25% of your church membership leaving due to a single issue isn't cause and effect, I'm not sure what is.

So are we to assume that the 25% who have left are people who want no association with gay people?

They left because they don’t want gay people to be pastors in their church and they don’t want gay people married in their church.

I assume they are fine with gay people attending their church, as most Christian churches are these days as far as I know.

[drumdude]

You also don't seem to recognize that a decision in May of this year cannot be the cause of disaffiliation that happened prior to the event.

You’re correct. 20 percent of them left last year to a more conservative branch because they feared their church would allow LGBT marriages and clergy. That fear turned out to be true, coincidentally.

[ceeboo]

I don't see it that way, but I certainly allow you to see it the way you do.

I do think that LGBT clergy and marriages are a bridge too far for a ton of Christians, and that doesn’t make them bigots. It’s just where we are culturally as a country right now.

People have tended to soften their views over time and although right now it looks impossible, I think they’ll soften on these issues too eventually. But I could definitely be wrong, past results are not indications of future performance.

DD, I posted a very short reply the last time by design and did not address the specific issues you mentioned by design (Many reasons - A mere one is understanding where I am posting (I may come across as offensive) and how long it would take to make clear and responsible replies).

ANOTHER VERY SHORT RESPONSE:

There are no "LGBT" verses in the Bible- Anti or pro - LGBT is a fairly recent term with all sorts of attachments. Much of the LGBT discussion has been about human rights and equal rights. I believe that they should have every right that anyone else has.

Marriage (I would need to write an entire novel here to explain my view properly) was created by the Creator. A metaphor is used between Christ and the church.

The Bible has been being "softened" by many - for many reasons - for quite some time. This dilution (if the Bible is the Word of God) is very dangerous. It is not up to mere creation (human beings) to alter/change/modify scripture for any reason. Will it continue to be softened? Perhaps.

[drumdude]

I do think that LGBT clergy and marriages are a bridge too far for a ton of Christians, and that doesn’t make them bigots. It’s just where we are culturally as a country right now.

People have tended to soften their views over time and although right now it looks impossible, I think they’ll soften on these issues too eventually. But I could definitely be wrong, past results are not indications of future performance.

DD, I posted a very short reply the last time by design and did not address the specific issues you mentioned by design (Many reasons - A mere one is understanding where I am posting (I may come across as offensive) and how long it would take to make clear and responsible replies).

ANOTHER VERY SHORT RESPONSE:

There are no "LGBT" verses in the Bible- Anti or pro - LGBT is a fairly recent term with all sorts of attachments. Much of the LGBT discussion has been about human rights and equal rights. I believe that they should have every right that anyone else has.

Marriage (I would need to write an entire novel here to explain my view properly) was created by the Creator. A metaphor is used between Christ and the church.

The Bible has been being "softened" by many - for many reasons - for quite some time. This dilution (if the Bible is the Word of God) is very dangerous. It is not up to mere creation (human beings) to alter/change/modify scripture for any reason. Will it continue to be softened? Perhaps.

This is a very progressive forum, so that’s completely understandable.

One of my more progressive ideas is that there really isn’t a hard absolute interpretation of the Bible. So the softness isn’t people interpreting the Bible incorrectly, it’s just people interpreting the Bible through their cultural lens.

As evidence for this, I think you only have to look at the number of different churches that disagree on almost everything in the Bible. And how much the understanding of the Bible has changed over the millennia. But I can see how one would be able to justify some beliefs as being firmer and more absolute than others.

[Res Ipsa]

You also don't seem to recognize that a decision in May of this year cannot be the cause of disaffiliation that happened prior to the event.

You’re correct. 20 percent of them left last year to a more conservative branch because they feared their church would allow LGBT marriages and clergy. That fear turned out to be true, coincidentally.

Self-fulfilling prophecy;

[Res Ipsa]

So, do you live the law of Moses as set out in the Old Testament?

No, the old covenant has passed away and is now obsolete. Christians are under the New Covenant. A few examples from scripture:


Jeremiah 11:10
International Standard Version
10 They have turned back to the iniquities of their ancestors of old[a] who refused to listen to my words. They followed other gods to serve them. The house of Israel and the house of Judah broke my covenant which I made with their ancestors.”
The New Covenant

2 Corinthians 3:14
International Standard Version
14 However, their minds were hardened, for to this day the same veil is still there when they read the old covenant. Only in union with the Messiah[a] is that veil removed.

Hebrews 8:7
International Standard Version
The New Covenant is Better than the Old
7 If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one,

Luke 22:20
He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant sealed by my blood, which is being poured out for you

So, none of the law of Moses is part of the whole thing that must be accepted as scripture? (I have no idea why my text is bolded.)