Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

[Physics Guy]

You have tried to support the charge "Muslims worship Muhammad" by showing "Muslims pray to Muhammad". It is not clear (a) that wishing peace upon someone is praying to them or (b) that praying to someone is worshipping them.

Why do you think (a) and (b)?

I hope this point doesn't get lost, because I'm afraid it pulls the rug out from under all the long quotes.

Wishing peace upon living people isn't praying to them, and it isn't worshipping them. What difference does it make if the person is dead?

Is any kind of attempt at addressing dead people automatically a prayer to them, and an act of worshipping them? What if I send a thought to Hitler or Stalin, telling them how vile they were and wishing them misery? That hardly seems like worship.

Does it somehow make a crucial difference that I wish something positive for the dead? If so, then how positive does the wish for the dead have to be for it to count as worship? If I wish Ronald Reagan an okay afterlife day, is that worship, or is it not a good enough wish? Do I have to wish him a better-than-average day? A great day? Even wishing Ronald Reagan a really fantastic slice of afterlife experience doesn't seem like worship to me.

I submit that all you have to do is think a bit about this to see that all the blessings on Muhammad really do not add up to praying to, or worshipping, Muhammad. It's nothing but a bait-and-switch fallacy, like a prosecutor who presents a lot of evidence that I verbally insulted someone, then with no further actual evidence starts calling my insult an "attack," and then starts calling the attack "murder".

[ceeboo]

You have tried to support the charge "Muslims worship Muhammad" by showing "Muslims pray to Muhammad". It is not clear (a) that wishing peace upon someone is praying to them

What ought to be clear regarding praying to Muhammed (or anyone for that matter) is what someone does when they are in prayer mode. In this specific case, millions of people, five times a day, all over the globe perform salat (prayer) - While performing salat, these millions of people recite the following words "Peace be unto YOU, O prophet. They are directly speaking to Muhammed. If they are speaking to Muhammed while performing salat (prayer) they are praying to Muhammed.

or (b) that praying to someone is worshipping them.

In this context (millions of people performing daily recited prayer to Allah and Muhammed, at the same time) is worship, in my opinion. You need not agree with my opinion.

Wishing peace upon living people isn't praying to them

Sure - But praying to dead people is praying to them.

, and it isn't worshipping them. What difference does it make if the person is dead?

The following two things are not the same:

On August 13th, 2019, Kevin wished peace upon his Aunt Stephanie (Doesn't matter if Stephanie is alive or dead)

Every day, five times a day, millions and millions of people bow down and perform salat (prayer) during salat, these millions of people are praying - they are praying to Allah and Muhammed - one of the things they are all reciting is the following "Peace be unto YOU, O prophet.

Is any kind of attempt at addressing dead people automatically a prayer to them

Depends. If you are attempting to address Elvis Presley to ask him if he really wore blue suede shoes, I could see nuance in that - perhaps you were simply trying to communicate with Elvis to get your answer about the shoes.

If you were one of millions of people who were performing salat (prayer) and all of you recited the same thing while performing salat (praying), then I would submit that you are indeed praying while performing salat (prayer)

What if I send a thought to Hitler or Stalin, telling them how vile they were and wishing them misery?

What if you, along with millions of other people, were performing salat (prayer) and all of you addressed Hitler and recited the same words - like "Peace be unto you, O Hitler" - I would submit that you, as well as the millions who have joined you, are praying to Hitler.

Does it somehow make a crucial difference that I wish something positive for the dead?

No, if millions of people were performing salat (prayer) and they all recited "Stress and harm be upon YOU, O prophet" - it would bring no change to the fact that they are addressing Muhammed in their prayer - a.k.a., praying directly to Muhammed.

I submit that all you have to do is think a bit about this to see that all the blessings on Muhammad really do not add up to praying to

I submit that praying to Muhammed adds up to praying to Muhammed (No matter how much thinking you do about it)

[Morley]

Wishing peace upon living people isn't praying to them, and it isn't worshipping them. What difference does it make if the person is dead?

Thank you for bringing this up, again. It's an excellent point, one that when you add in other cultural influences, becomes even more salient. My wife didn't immigrate until she was a young adult. Even though her English is better than mine, she still has quirks of language that define her speech. Any time she speaks of someone who has passed, she will invariably intone, 'May they rest in peace,' after saying their name.

She will also frequently and casually refer to God in a way, and with a consistency, that some Christians think might be taking the Lord's name in vain. In the culture she was raised in, it's considered semi-blasphemous to not be invoking God continuously, as a way of honoring and recognizing the power of God and the parallel insignificance of man. She does these things despite the fact that she's largely non-practicing.

Because of the culture she was raised in, she vociferously defends Muslims and any slights to the Prophet. She will always identify as a Shia Muslim, no matter what her own level of personal belief. Even if she were a non-believer, she would bless the dead, whether she liked them or not; she would honor God and the Quran, whether she believed in them or not. To say that she prays (or has ever prayed) to the prophet is laughable and ignorant.

Many of our closest friends are self-identified Muslims. I've traveled far and wide in the Near East, where my sister lived, and where many of our friends and family are. I speak some Farsi, and have read widely on this. In my experience, her behaviors and approach are not unique.

[Gadianton]

I wasn't aware of this Christian apologetic; I looked it up and a YouTube video pops up with an Arminian Christian guy on the phone trolling a Muslim guy, telling him he worships Mohamad while the Muslim guy is getting frustrated and denying it. The comment section is filled with "Christ is Lord" born-again Christian nonsense cheering on the antagonist.

Mormons get accused of worshipping Joseph Smith for similar reasons, the song "praise to the man" is a great example. However, if you eliminate that song, or took that one line out of the Muslim prayer, does it really undo the accusation? Look, there is no God, and so any claimed middleman, the guy who reveals the nonexistent God to the parishioners, is very likely to become the object of worship, and when you have billions of people who follow the middleman, whose language has remained relatively unchanged over thousands of years, centered around the book he authored, I don't think the accusation is a far stretch. Words here and there hardly matter in comparison. To me, there's nothing in principal that's insulting about it, Christians directly worship the middleman Jesus. I think the primary insult is the act of psychoanalysis, the antagonist is supposedly revealing something about the target that the target denies. "Let me tell you what you really believe."

Hugh Nibley used to make fun of Carl Sagan saying that Carl Sagan was actually a religious believer who worshipped Carl Sagan. He took a cultural place of a deity for atheists, flying a light-filled spaceship around the universe and speaking softly and reverentially while revealing great truths unquestioned by his audience.

You know that saying, "stand for something or fall for anything?" There's a sense in which a revered leader isn't necessarily bad. Catholics have a Pope, and whatever problems that has caused the world, the free-for-all of the vacuum left for protestants has landed with Evangelicals worshiping Donald Trump. To the extent that Muslims could be said to worship Mohamad in a psychoanalytical way, it's far less embarrassing than the fact that Evangelical Christians worship Donald Trump. Muslims don't even allow images, and in all this time they've never created images and icons to worship. And look at what Christians have done -- the Bible forbids idol worship explicitly, and Evangelical Christians literally create "gold calf" version of Donald Trump and worship it. Evangelical preachers have cutouts of Trump that they pray over in front of congregations of thousands. One revered Christian politician with such a cutout even grabbed the crotch of the cutout on camera in front of her audience!

And so I'm sorry, but this is a perfect example of throwing stones in a glass house, and no evangelical Christian anywhere gets to reveal the allegedly embarrassing secret beliefs of any other religion, not when they are (not-so) secretly worshiping a crass, nonbelieving, bumbling and foolish Hitler wannabe.

[drumdude]

I submit that praying to Muhammed adds up to praying to Muhammed (No matter how much thinking you do about it)

When someone sneezes and a Christian says “bless you” is that person praying to the person who sneezed? Or are they asking for God to bless that person? Or are they blessing the person themselves?

I remember a tongue-in-cheek Mormon joke that women wouldn’t say “bless you” because they didn’t have the priesthood authority.

Can’t words mean many different things in many different contexts?

[Morley]

I submit that praying to Muhammed adds up to praying to Muhammed (No matter how much thinking you do about it)

Ceeboo, stepping back from this for a moment, I'll ask, why does this matter to you? Why are you fixated on expressing your opinion on the manner and form of Muslim prayer? Why would you even care about how Muslims pray or what they believe? You have not been, nor will you ever be, a Muslim. You're not interested in the religion or culture enough to really investigate either. I don't understand why this is such a concern for you.

You may turn around and ask me why it matters to me, but I think I've made that pretty obvious.

[ceeboo]

I submit that praying to Muhammed adds up to praying to Muhammed (No matter how much thinking you do about it)

When someone sneezes and a Christian says “bless you” is that person praying to the person who sneezed? Or are they asking for God to bless that person? Or are they blessing the person themselves?

It has been my personal experience that when people say "bless you" after a sneeze, it's simply an extension of courtesy - Like saying excuse me if you bump into someone. I say this, in part, because I know many non-believers who respond to a sneeze with "bless you" the same way I, a believer would.

Can’t words mean many different things in many different contexts?

Sure, but context in precisely how we determine meaning. In this particular case, the context is salat (prayer)- what is being recited while practicing salat (prayer) - So, in my opinion, your context suggestion, while I believe is valid, adds further weight to my position.

[ceeboo]

I submit that praying to Muhammed adds up to praying to Muhammed (No matter how much thinking you do about it)

Ceeboo, stepping back from this for a moment, I'll ask, why does this matter to you? Why are you fixated on expressing your opinion on the manner and form of Muslim prayer? Why would you even care about how Muslims pray or what they believe? You have not been, nor will you ever be, a Muslim. You're not interested in the religion or culture enough to really investigate either. I don't understand why this is such a concern for you.

Truth matters to me - And I think truth is objective - we all don't get to have our own truth (That's why I am a Christian - I believe Jesus rose from dead and is Lord/God - And I believe it's obviously true) - I care about human beings - I care if human beings are being deceived and/or lead astray.

Muhammed (like Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith, Ron Hubbard, etc) use Jesus - they dilute Jesus (I think much of this is demonic, literally). In this particular discussion, I am trying to challenge people who follow Muhammed/Quran - I am trying to have people evaluate what is found in the Quran - I am trying to challenge people to evaluate the character/morals of Muhammed - I am trying to challenge people to weigh Muhammed/Quran against Jesus/collection of 66 books we call the Bible.

If someone measures/compares/evaluates these things on the same scale and they find that they are equal (both true - neither true - both nonsense - whatever), then, I accomplished what I wanted to accomplish and I can do no more.

At the end of the day, I am a Christian and if I believe what I claim that I do, how awful would it be for me to NOT express my opinions about these things?

I hope that made some sense and was a bit helpful.

[drumdude]

sneeze, it's simply an extension of courtesy - Like saying excuse me if you bump into someone.

So that’s why I give Muslims the same deference - if their culture doesn’t believe they are praying to Muhammad nor worshiping him, then that’s the context.

If a Muslim told you that saying “bless you” wasn’t a curtesy, you would rightly be able to tell him he was misunderstanding the context. Just like Muslims are telling you that you’re missing the meaning of the salat.

[ceeboo]

sneeze, it's simply an extension of courtesy - Like saying excuse me if you bump into someone.

So that’s why I give Muslims the same deference - if their culture doesn’t believe they are praying to Muhammad nor worshiping him, then that’s the context.

If a Muslim told you that saying “bless you” wasn’t a curtesy, you would rightly be able to tell him he was misunderstanding the context. Just like Muslims are telling you that you’re missing the meaning of the salat.

Fair point/points.