If plates then God

[MG 2.0]

Go to your App Store.

Download Deseret Bookshelf.

Open up app.

Do a search: Lucy Mack Smith.

Go to links as you link from her name.

Choose “History of Joseph Smith by His Mother”.

It’s free.

I wonder if the Church's free copy is Lucy Smith's original version, which Brigham Young called a "tissue of lies" and ordered all Saints to destroy their copies of; or if it's the Joseph F. Smith "corrected" version that helped maintain the legitimacy of the Utah corporation church.

If you download it you might let us know.

My guess is you will still be able to get a pretty accurate reflection as to the concern/topic that is being discussed by reading through Chapter 18.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Go to your App Store.

Download Deseret Bookshelf.

Open up app.

Do a search: Lucy Mack Smith.

Go to links as you link from her name.

Choose “History of Joseph Smith by His Mother”.

It’s free.

I wonder if the Church's free copy is Lucy Smith's original version, which Brigham Young called a "tissue of lies" and ordered all Saints to destroy their copies of; or if it's the Joseph F. Smith "corrected" version that helped maintain the legitimacy of the Utah corporation church.

Going back and looking it appears to be the revised version approved by Joseph F. Smith.

If you’re more comfortable with the original go here:

https://contentdm.lib.BYU.edu/digital/c ... 6/id/16445

Chapter 19 instead of 18.

You’re right, Brigham Young had issues with the original.

Later historians theorized that Young opposed the book because of his own conflicts with its publisher, Orson Pratt, as well as the book's favorable references to William Smith, Young's opponent and Lucy's son. Lucy Mack Smith portrayed the Smith family as the legitimate leaders of the church, which Young may also have seen as a challenge to his leadership.

This is information that many of us here were already aware of.

But I don’t think this has anything to do with the subject at hand.

IHAQ had a concern with Joseph’s regaling of ancient American inhabitant tales given by Joseph to his family being around the same time as the visit of the angel Moroni. I think he was taking issue to that.

Typically the critics will simply focus on Joseph’s stories without looking at context.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

I don’t own the book. Can you provide the quote that supports what you said?

Go to your App Store.

Download Deseret Bookshelf.

Open up app.

Do a search: Lucy Mack Smith.

Go to links as you link from her name.

Choose “History of Joseph Smith by His Mother”.

It’s free.

Go to Chapter 18.

It took me less than a minute to get there including the download to my iPad. I only had Deseret Bookshelf on my phone.

It’s better to read everything in context. That’s what is often frustrating here on this board. Folks want others to spoon feed them something that might be out of context. Context matters.

So then you have Doc and others complaining when source materials are linked to. They should be grateful.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
MG

Can’t you just quote the relevant part that supports your assertion?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

MG knows he’s not supposed to link and run, but here are with #13000

- Doc

Hey Doc, good to see you’re keeping up with this rather long thread. Yeah, I posted this link with the hope that you might give it a quick read through. I did. This thread is so long and has gone all over the place. I don’t want to go too far down any one rabbit hole at this point. I’m coming in where necessary to answer and respond to questions. This link is meant to be used as a resource in regards to the topic being discussed.

tagriffy mentioned a source author, I’m doing the same but also linking to the actual source.

You can simply take it or leave it. Doesn’t matter to me.

Some folks, however, might find it useful.

Regards,
MG

Why don’t you post the relevant portion of the article you link and explain why that piece is pertinent to the discussion?

- Doc

[tagriffy]

Wunderli’s ‘pickin’ and choosin’ is questionable.

I have different problems than Roper et al., but I'll still stand by my statement he makes a very good case for single authorship. The fact that Roper's methods can be used to show all sorts of different results for Book of Mormon authorship--including some clearly absurd conclusions--doesn't bode well for the approach. While Roper et al. offers some cautions I already thought of myself (e.g., standardized frequencies), their analyses have problems of their own. In their critique of Wunderli's raw count of the words power, faith, blood, destruction, suffer, and miracles, they use Mormon's entire word count to show massive differences between Mormon and Moroni. However, Wunderli was specifically addressing firsthand accounts. The proper apples to apples comparison would not be Mormon's entire 170,783 words. It would actually be the word counts for Words of Mormon, his interpolations, Mormon, and the letters copied in Moroni as compared to Moroni's completion of Mormon, his interpolations in Ether, and Moroni. I don't know how this affects the rates, but I'm willing to bet Wunderli's conclusion will hold.

As I’ve said the authorship question precedes the issues involved in geography, historicity, and all the rest. If Joseph couldn’t have composed the Book of Mormon on his own then we are looking at the traditional narrative as being correct. If so, the other concerns become peripheral.

Regards,
MG

Here, I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Issues of "geography, historicity, and all the rest" are basic. Resolve those issues, and the authorship question largely resolves itself.

[I Have Questions]

Alvin died in November 1823, possibly as a result of being given calomel for "bilious fever", and the house remained uncompleted for a year.[14] By this time Joseph Smith Sr. may have partially abdicated family leadership to Alvin,[15] and in 1825, the Smiths were unable to make their mortgage payments. When their creditor foreclosed, the family persuaded a local Quaker, Lemuel Durfee, to buy the farm and rent it to them. Nevertheless, in 1829, the Smiths and five of their children moved back into the log house, with Hyrum Smith and his wife.[16]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_l ... seph_Smith

It seems the promise of finding buried treasure, tales of gold plates and visions came at a time when Joseph was well aware the family was broke and needed some income.

[MG 2.0]

Since we’ve been discussing the likelihood of whether or not Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon on his own and the correlation this has with angels, plates, and God, I thought I might post this graphic that illustrates some of the things Brian Hales points out in the link I provided upthread.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp- ... FINAL2.pdf

This was from a FAIR Conference in 2021.

Brian Hales was the presenter. All in a nutshell.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

Joseph who never said many words upon any subject but always seemed to reflect more deeply than common persons of his age upon everything of a religious nature This After we ceased conversation he went to bed <​and was pondering in his mind which of the churches were the true one.​> an but he had not laid there long till <​he saw​> a bright <​light​> entered the room where he lay he looked up and saw an angel of the Lord stood <​standing​> by him The angel spoke I perceive that you are enquiring in your mind which is the true church there is not a true church on Earth No not one Nor <​and​> has not been since Peter took the Keys <​of the Melchesidec priesthood after the order of God​> into the Kingdom of Heaven the churches that are now upon the Earth are all man made churches. Joseph there is a record for you and you must get it one day get it There is a record for [p. [10], bk. 3] you and Joseph when you have learned to keep the commandments of God but you cannot get it untill you learn to keep the commandments of God <​For it is not to get gain.​> For But it is to bring forth that light and intelligence which has been long lost in the Earth Now Joseph <​or​> beware <​or​> when you go to get the plates your mind will be filld with darkness and all man[n]er of evil will rush into your mind. To keep <​prevent​> you from keeping the commandments of God <​that you migh may not suceced in doing his work​> and you must tell your father of this for he will believe every word you say the record is on a side hill on the Hill of Cumorah 3 miles from this place remove the Grass and moss and you will find a large flat stone pry that up and you will find the record under it laying on 4 pillars <​of cement​>— then the angel left him

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... transcript

MG - do you agree that the first vision occurred in Joseph’s bedroom and was just a solitary angel?

[MG 2.0]

Alvin died in November 1823, possibly as a result of being given calomel for "bilious fever", and the house remained uncompleted for a year.[14] By this time Joseph Smith Sr. may have partially abdicated family leadership to Alvin,[15] and in 1825, the Smiths were unable to make their mortgage payments. When their creditor foreclosed, the family persuaded a local Quaker, Lemuel Durfee, to buy the farm and rent it to them. Nevertheless, in 1829, the Smiths and five of their children moved back into the log house, with Hyrum Smith and his wife.[16]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_l ... seph_Smith

It seems the promise of finding buried treasure, tales gold plates and visions came at a time when Joseph was well aware the family was broke and needed some income.

The primary temptation Joseph had to overcome when initially shown the plates was to squelch the impulse to use the plates as a source of gaining immediate wealth. This was one of the reasons he had to wait four years before he could be trusted to obtain the plates.

If you’ve done your reading assignment you will see that Joseph had tutoring sessions with Moroni in which he was given instructions and one might imagine some inkling(s) as to the historical narrative contained on the plates.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_l ... seph_Smith

It seems the promise of finding buried treasure, tales gold plates and visions came at a time when Joseph was well aware the family was broke and needed some income.

The primary temptation Joseph had to overcome when initially shown the plates was to squelch the impulse to use the plates as a source of gaining immediate wealth. This was one of the reasons he had to wait four years before he could be trusted to obtain the plates.

Regards,
MG

Nope. He was drawing a blank with his promises of finding buried treasure for people, so he had to “find” something and come up with a good explanation as to why he couldn’t show people. It’s always been about getting money. It still is.