Chap wrote:Well, that does seem reasonable, doesn't it, especially the bolded part?
My BIL, who is a stake president, told me that he finds church meetings "brutal" and "excruciating," yet he is diligent and faithful because he has a testimony it's true. At the same time, he said he and my sister consciously avoid looking into church history because "there's stuff in there we know we can't handle."
The thing about Mormonism is that we were taught to give to the church without any thought of getting anything in return (other than perceived blessings). To speak of the church in terms of what we get out of it is to be selfish. But at some point, people need to get something positive out of their religion, or it isn't worth it. I'm convinced that correlation and the uniform budget have removed a lot of what Mormonism gave back to its members, which is why members (in my view) are increasingly motivated by obligation and duty than they are by genuine enthusiasm for the church.
Runtu wrote:I posted a link to the Times article on my Facebook page. I immediately got a "it's all been discussed for years" response, followed by a "the church shouldn't spoon-feed the members, especially not controversial stuff, because we should be focused on service and love."
This has been the standard reply of uber-TBM's. They just don't get, and I suspect they never will. But being on the front page of the friggin' New York Times, you better believe this article and Hans Mattsson are getting some serious attention at headquarters.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Runtu wrote:At the same time, he said he and my sister consciously avoid looking into church history because "there's stuff in there we know we can't handle."
I've had local leaders (i.e., bishop and stake president levels) tell me the same thing. They avoid looking into the tough issues (even when members come to them with questions on those topics) because they're scared of what they'll find. They don't like this tactic, but they fear losing testimony even more.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Runtu wrote:I posted a link to the Times article on my Facebook page. I immediately got a "it's all been discussed for years" response, followed by a "the church shouldn't spoon-feed the members, especially not controversial stuff, because we should be focused on service and love."
This has been the standard reply of uber-TBM's. They just don't get, and I suspect they never will. But being on the front page of the friggin' New York Times, you better believe this article and Hans Mattsson are getting some serious attention at headquarters.
They've had two years to address this individuals questions and concerns. To respond properly to the points raised at the meeting in Sweden in 2010. They have procrastinated and now their dithering and blathering and obfuscating is slapped across the front page of one of the biggest newspapers on the planet.
Will they grasp the nettle? History suggests they won't, but I think the toilets in the COB will need extra attention this week...
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
Bazooka wrote:So, me and Sister Bazooka are watching a TV programme about Warren Jeff's and polygamous cults. Me: "I wonder how this differs to the polygamy of Joseph Smiths era?" "Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy." Me: "What? Are you sure?" "Yes, it only started during Brigham Young's era because there were so many widows that needed looking after following the trek west when many of their husbands died." Me: "Really, you sure?" "Yep." Me: "I've just checked on Family Search and it says Joseph Smith had 33 wives...." *silence* Me: "Hang on, some of them were already married." *silence, with a furrowed brow, then* "Well, I'm not getting into any of that..." *exits the room*
Sister Bazooka is a lifelong member of the Church who graduated seminary and institute, taught Primary, Young Women, Relief and Sunday School.
Sister DrW and DrW had a very similar conversation several years ago. Sister DrW eventually started to check things out for herself with DrW showing her where to look when she asked. There were a lot of tears, but Sister DrW eventually became NOM, and is headed toward full apostate. Life is getting better in the DrW household all the time.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
Runtu wrote:we should be focused on service and love."
I think a lot of this historical and doctrinal stuff could be forgiven if the church really did purge itself of its ugly history and doctrines and instead focus on service and love. But they celebrate their history, worship the very people and doctrines that are so controversial, and expect their members to be obedient to them.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
Jonathan Bautista July 22, 2013 at 11:08 am Hi, I am a friend of Hans Mattsson. He was the stake president that set me apart to become a full time missionary. Birgitta assisted on cooking the food that was served during the reception after I was married to my wife in the Stockholm Temple.
Before and during my mission I developed doubts over some aspects of church practice, principles and history. It never felt good/true. After years of study I also attended the meeting with Elder Jensen and Bro. Turley. They both came across as very caring and genuine people. The big take away for me at this meeting was that the questions I was having were legit. The history that was troubling me were events that really happened.
My conviction is that feelings of satisfaction are based on expectation and attitude. Depending on your expectations of the claims made by the LDS church-you will accept or find problems coming across the difficult LDS history.
I too had meetings with stake presidents and bishops as well as stake representatives. . Overall however I was treated very well.
One comment of the meeting with E. Jensen and Bro Turley was that in many instances we were told that there wasn’t enough time to fully answer the concerns. The paradox was that the Area general authority took almost an hour at the end, sharing the Korihor story telling us not to disturb our friends in the church-and make a decision to stay or leave.
After the meeting I know that the leaders spent additional time in discussing on how to deal with the situation..so from a priority standpoint, providing additional light to some of the questions, wasn’t at the top of the list.
Overall I still appreciate the efforts made by LDS and E. Jensen and Bro Turley for travelling to Sweden and taking the time to listen to us.
For me it was valuable as it forced me to make a decision I haven’t regretted.
Me and my wife have removed our names from the LDS records. We have also removed our children’s name from the records.
After years of internal conflict, and sorrow I am finally at peace.
At the end of the day my reasons for being a member of the church was because I was raised to believe that the claims the LDS church makes are literally true. If they are not, I in fact felt like I was supporting a lie by being a member.
I still am very grateful for all the good the LDS church has brought to my life… But in order to have a credible claim to inner peace, I need to apply my life in harmony with my conscience and personal values-and for me the LDS history, practice and policy in to many aspects create inner conflict…
Thanks John for all that you do-and Thanks Hans and Birgitta for friendship and the example of integrity that you are!
From his experience the rescue was more about shutting the disaffected up, than resolving concerns.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin
Jonathan Bautista July 22, 2013 at 11:08 am Hi, I am a friend of Hans Mattsson. He was the stake president that set me apart to become a full time missionary. Birgitta assisted on cooking the food that was served during the reception after I was married to my wife in the Stockholm Temple.
Before and during my mission I developed doubts over some aspects of church practice, principles and history. It never felt good/true. After years of study I also attended the meeting with Elder Jensen and Bro. Turley. They both came across as very caring and genuine people. The big take away for me at this meeting was that the questions I was having were legit. The history that was troubling me were events that really happened.
My conviction is that feelings of satisfaction are based on expectation and attitude. Depending on your expectations of the claims made by the LDS church-you will accept or find problems coming across the difficult LDS history.
I too had meetings with stake presidents and bishops as well as stake representatives. . Overall however I was treated very well.
One comment of the meeting with E. Jensen and Bro Turley was that in many instances we were told that there wasn’t enough time to fully answer the concerns. The paradox was that the Area general authority took almost an hour at the end, sharing the Korihor story telling us not to disturb our friends in the church-and make a decision to stay or leave.
After the meeting I know that the leaders spent additional time in discussing on how to deal with the situation..so from a priority standpoint, providing additional light to some of the questions, wasn’t at the top of the list.
Overall I still appreciate the efforts made by LDS and E. Jensen and Bro Turley for travelling to Sweden and taking the time to listen to us.
For me it was valuable as it forced me to make a decision I haven’t regretted.
Me and my wife have removed our names from the LDS records. We have also removed our children’s name from the records.
After years of internal conflict, and sorrow I am finally at peace.
At the end of the day my reasons for being a member of the church was because I was raised to believe that the claims the LDS church makes are literally true. If they are not, I in fact felt like I was supporting a lie by being a member.
I still am very grateful for all the good the LDS church has brought to my life… But in order to have a credible claim to inner peace, I need to apply my life in harmony with my conscience and personal values-and for me the LDS history, practice and policy in to many aspects create inner conflict…
Thanks John for all that you do-and Thanks Hans and Birgitta for friendship and the example of integrity that you are!
From his experience the rescue was more about shutting the disaffected up, than resolving concerns.
Which comes as a surprise to approximately no one.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)