Who's left?

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_mentalgymnast
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Re: Who's left?

Post by _mentalgymnast »


Darth: To be fair, mentalgymnast, neither your religion in general nor your denomination in particular have given you any particular insights or answers to the problem of evil. If only there were some kind of living spokesman for God who could receive some kind of answer to these questions.


2 Nephi Chapter 2 covers it pretty well. Living spokesmen for God have used this text as a basis for their teachings.

Regards,
MG
_Bazooka
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Re: Who's left?

Post by _Bazooka »

mentalgymnast wrote:Straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it. That's a "given" which has been around for a long time. I think you can find it in the New Testament somewhere. Seems to be the way things always have been and always will be. Not a reason to trash the restoration by any means.

Regards,
MG


Would the Church then be truer then if there were even less people in it?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Who's left?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

mentalgymnast wrote:
All religions are composed of God's chosen people.

.

Regards,
MG





This is not what is meant by 'chosen' in the context that religions use it and defining it as such only serves to move the LDS closer to being just another Christian sect. The LDS Church feels they are the only ones here on earth who can act with God's authority and that eternal exaltation only is available through that power.



While I cannot speak for all denominations, I suspect that all religions feel they are in possession of knowledge and or power unique to them that sets them apart, in God's eyes, from everyone else. They all believe, in the hereafter, they will be rewarded by God for their ability in this life to discern what He wants them to do. Not only are they chosen here on earth, they are chosen for eternity.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Darth J
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Re: Who's left?

Post by _Darth J »

mentalgymnast wrote:

Darth: To be fair, mentalgymnast, neither your religion in general nor your denomination in particular have given you any particular insights or answers to the problem of evil. If only there were some kind of living spokesman for God who could receive some kind of answer to these questions.


2 Nephi Chapter 2 covers it pretty well. Living spokesmen for God have used this text as a basis for their teachings.

Regards,
MG


2 Nephi 2 is a standard theodicy about free will and natural laws. There is nothing unique about it: many, many people before Joseph Smith and after have come up with these explanations. A theodicy is an argument attempting to logically reconcile the existence of evil---both moral evil and natural disasters---with the assertion that the Abrahamic God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevlent. The suggested theodicy of 2 Nephi 2 not only is not unique, it is more or less cliché'. And the argument has substantial problems.

Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Problem of Evil

Theodicies

Also, here is your "we don't know what God knows" argument:

Human Epistemological Limitations

So let's apply 2 Nephi 2 to reality. I want my kids to understand happiness. So I will beat them mercilessly from time to time, make them sleep outside in the cold, not feed them, and give them a bunch of mixed messages about what rules they are supposed to follow and no coherent way to determine if the rules they think they have to follow really came from me. And the merciless beatings will happen no matter what they do, anyway. This way, when I decide to be nice to them, they will appreciate it more.

In real life, child protective services would step in to prevent me from abusing my kids like this. But what you're saying is that our loving, wonderful Heavenly Father acts orders of magnitude worse than this, in order to make us happy. If the Mormon god has the same sense of morality we do, such that we have a valid warrant for asserting he is morally good, then why would it be wrong for me to treat my kids the way you say Heavenly Father treats his kids?

Jesus said on the Sermon on the Mount that no mortal parent would give his child a stone when he asks for bread, or a serpent when he asks for a fish, and since we imperfect mortals can figure that out, it stands to reason that our perfect and completely righteous Heavenly Father would be even more like this. Real life does not bear that out, though, because of the various types of suffering that your deity either actively causes or willingly chooses to allow. So now, contra Jesus, you have to assert that our Heavenly Father will intentionally give us a stone or a serpent, so that we can appreciate it in the event that he ever gives us bread or a fish.

By the way, you've got a couple more problems with 2 Nephi 2. One is that if everything we know about good and evil is a posteriori, then how could I have ever had my first experience with good and evil? I can only experience good if I have experienced evil, but I can only experience evil if I have experienced good, so how can this process ever even start?

The next problem you've got is that it is Mormon theology contradicts itself, because 2 Nephi 2 says we learn about good and evil only a posteriori---the chapter explicitly says that it has to be this way, or nothing could exist. But then the Doctrine and Covenants says every man knows the difference between good and evil a priori---through the Light of Christ. So which is it? Is the plan of salvation necessary because only through experience can we know the difference between good and evil? Or is it that the Light of Christ, which is a force of nature, directly makes people know the difference between good and evil through our innate conscience rather than experience?

And then there is the continuity problem that both Jehovah and the Holy Ghost attained godhood prior to passing through this mortal vale of tears, demonstrating that within Mormon theology, it is in fact not necessary to experience the tribulations and oppositions of mortal life in order to become a god. (You'll remember that Mormon theology expressly holds that Jehovah/Jesus is not inherently a god, but progressed to godhood in the pre-mortal existence.)

In summary, the following points stand:
--Neither your religion in general nor your denomination in particular have given you any particular insights or answers to the problem of evil.
--It is reasonable to assume that if the LDS Church really had prophets who were receiving revelation from an omnibenevolent deity whose work and glory was to bring about our immortality and eternal life, and if the purpose of the alleged restoration was to open the heavens once more to end sectarian confusion and bring the true gospel to the world, said deity might have something to say about the most problematic philosophical issue in theism, which has been debated for centuries.
--Yet no such insights are present in the LDS Church.
--As an extra bonus, the boilerplate theodicies the LDS Church and its adherents have borrowed from other theists are inconsistent with the LDS narrative.
_Runtu
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Re: Who's left?

Post by _Runtu »

Darth J wrote:2 Nephi 2 is a standard theodicy about free will and natural laws. There is nothing unique about it: many, many people before Joseph Smith and after have come up with these explanations. A theodicy is an argument attempting to logically reconcile the existence of evil---both moral evil and natural disasters---with the assertion that the Abrahamic God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevlent. The suggested theodicy of 2 Nephi 2 not only is not unique, it is more or less cliché'. And the argument has substantial problems.


Much of what we see in 2 Nephi 2 is what is in Catholicism called the "Felix Culpa." As you say, it's not unique to Mormonism.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Darth J
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Re: Who's left?

Post by _Darth J »

mentalgymnast wrote:I think it comes down to find, accept,and LIVE his message. When you consider the covenants that are made and the time constraints and requirements in callings, family history, temple work and attendance, and other work loads/sacrifices (tithing and offerings, etc.) that are part of being a disciple of Jesus in the LDS Church, there are a lot of folks that may not want to go that far down/along the road of discipleship. And that's fine. It's not like God doesn't love all the folks that don't take the LDS route. He has blessings/opportunities in store for them also.


Mentalgymnast, how much time, effort, and sacrifice have you put into other religions to find out if they might be the true church?

Let's start with Scientology. I'm going to say you have put essentially zero time into paying the price and living the teachings of Scientology. From this, I will infer that you just don't want to make the effort to know if the Church of Scientology is the true church.

Or how about Anton LaVey Satanism? How much sacrifice and time and commitment have you put into the Church of Satan, to know if it is the true church?

We can go with Epsicopalianism, too, if you want. I think this exercise would greatly help in your refuting Richard Dawkins' observation that many people adhere to a certain religion simply because that is the way they were brought up.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Darth J
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Re: Who's left?

Post by _Darth J »

Runtu wrote:Much of what we see in 2 Nephi 2 is what is in Catholicism called the "Felix Culpa." As you say, it's not unique to Mormonism.


Also referred to less charitably as a "Batman Gambit."
_Chap
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Re: Who's left?

Post by _Chap »

Darth J wrote: ...

We can go with Episcopalianism, too, if you want. ...


Yes: intelligent and literate priests, a really complex and elaborated theology, a liturgy that changes with the seasons but still has unity within that variety, not many obvious superstitions, great music and architecture, a long and deep history that crosses cultures.

But alas not true. Which is still a subject of regret to me from time to time.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Who's left?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Darth J wrote:
Darth: To be fair, mentalgymnast, neither your religion in general nor your denomination in particular have given you any particular insights or answers to the problem of evil. If only there were some kind of living spokesman for God who could receive some kind of answer to these questions.

MG:
2 Nephi Chapter 2 covers it pretty well. Living spokesmen for God have used this text as a basis for their teachings.


Darth J wrote:2 Nephi 2 is a standard theodicy about free will and natural laws. There is nothing unique about it: many, many people before Joseph Smith and after have come up with these explanations.


2 Nephi 2 simply lays out rather explicitly the LDS view of opposition being a necessary part of life. It would be unremarkable to assume that elements of the doctrines taught in the Book of Mormon would also be found elsewhere.

Darth J wrote:So let's apply 2 Nephi 2 to reality. I want my kids to understand happiness. So I will beat them mercilessly from time to time, make them sleep outside in the cold, not feed them, and give them a bunch of mixed messages about what rules they are supposed to follow and no coherent way to determine if the rules they think they have to follow really came from me. And the merciless beatings will happen no matter what they do, anyway. This way, when I decide to be nice to them, they will appreciate it more.

In real life, child protective services would step in to prevent me from abusing my kids like this. But what you're saying is that our loving, wonderful Heavenly Father acts orders of magnitude worse than this, in order to make us happy. If the Mormon god has the same sense of morality we do, such that we have a valid warrant for asserting he is morally good, then why would it be wrong for me to treat my kids the way you say Heavenly Father treats his kids?


Your logic in this analogy fails on at least one point to act as an absolute PROOF that the LDS doctrine of opposition in all things doesn't hold any water. The point being, that the world "is what it is". There is opposition and evil where bad things happen to individuals and groups of people. So there are a few choices. 1. There's no God, and that pretty much takes care of having to explain anything. 2. If there is a creator/God, he really screwed up when he created this earth and got the ball rolling or he's just mean and cazy. 3. There is an all knowing, perfect, loving God and what we see in the world is part of His plan.

I think you've laid out your cards so that it becomes apparent that choice three is not an option for you. I'm assuming at this point that you are an atheist. You continue poo pooing the "Mormon god", but in essence you're also trashing the God of Christianity, or any creator/God.

So, if I default to belief in a creator/God I am also accepting "things as they are" in the world. Opposition and evil being two obvious realities. I'm not quite sure what it is that so violently offends you concerning the doctrine of opposition in all things except to think that you would rather keep away from any possibility that earth life is part of a testing program to weed out and categorize those that desire to serve God and keep all of His commandments from those that would rather take a different course. Opposition and evil provide an ideal testing ground for this to occur.

Every time you are critisizing what the "Mormon god" is/does, essentially you're also explaining away or putting the Heavenly Father of Christianity on the shelf with a box over his head and sidelining any creator/God who could somehow be involved in any way with this world that exists "as it is".

Darth J wrote:In summary, the following points stand:
--Neither your religion in general nor your denomination in particular have given you any particular insights or answers to the problem of evil.
--It is reasonable to assume that if the LDS Church really had prophets who were receiving revelation from an omnibenevolent deity whose work and glory was to bring about our immortality and eternal life, and if the purpose of the alleged restoration was to open the heavens once more to end sectarian confusion and bring the true gospel to the world, said deity might have something to say about the most problematic philosophical issue in theism, which has been debated for centuries.
--Yet no such insights are present in the LDS Church.
--As an extra bonus, the boilerplate theodicies the LDS Church and its adherents have borrowed from other theists are inconsistent with the LDS narrative.


May I suggest, for starters, that you go to:
http://mimobile.BYU.edu/?m=5&table=book ... 00&id=1111

You will find some "particular insights" that may be unique to critical thinkers with an LDS background/belief.

If you go here:
http://blakeostler.com/complete_works.html

You will find other "insights" available to those that subscribe to LDS belief.

Regards,
MG
_EAllusion
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Re: Who's left?

Post by _EAllusion »

http://mimobile.BYU.edu/?m=5&table=book ... 00&id=1111

You cannot defeat the problem of evil, in evidential or logical form, by arguing that since God did not create the universe nor is God all-powerful over it, God is limited in capacity to be responsible for the existence of evils. The problem of evil merely requires that evils (usually formulated as gratuitous suffering) exist that God is able to prevent where there is no countervailing moral purpose not to do so. If it is within the nature of God's abilities to prevent such evil, then you are left with the same incompatibility problem. Mormonism's God may be more limited than that of classical theism for the above mentioned reasons, but that God is not so limited to 1) lack the capacity to prevent all inscrutable suffering we see and 2) not be the cause of ostensible evils as described in the LDS canon. To the extent God is not an omnipotent creator of all that exists, it only matters insofar as that lack of omnipotence prevents God from preventing evils.
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