Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

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drumdude
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Re: Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

Post by drumdude »

Dan posted another entry about this:


For me, one of the most important principles in writing about the religious beliefs of others is this one: Those about whose religious beliefs one is writing should be able to recognize their religious beliefs in what has been written.

They may say that the author has expressed one or more elements of their belief in a somewhat unaccustomed way. That happens sometimes. But they should be able to recognize it as their own. One of the best compliments that I’ve occasionally received from Muslims about my writings on Islam is that I’ve gotten it “right.”

I would be quite unhappy if they were to have said the opposite. If the person whose religious faith has been “explained” is protesting “No! no! no! That’s not right! It’s not accurate! We don’t believe that!” then the wannabe explainer hasn’t done it right.

I can’t count the number of conversations about my own religious beliefs that I’ve had with others, especially with often quite exercised evangelical Protestants, in which they’ve said to me “You believe x!” and I’ve responded not only that, no, I don’t believe x but that, in fact, I’m unaware of anybody in my church who believes x. To which the challenger then responds “But that’s what your church teaches!” To which I’ve replied that, in all of my (now) many decades as a member and a missionary and a teacher and a writer and a sometime leader for my church, and as a long-time resident of Utah and a long-time professor of my church’s flagship university, I’ve never taught or been taught x as Church doctrine.” “Well, that’s still what your church believes!” answers the challenger. And, sometimes, if the challenger is especially well-equipped, he or (very occasionally) she will present me with a decontextualized supporting quotation from Journal of Discourses 14:234 or from an obscure 1950s book by a long forgotten member of the First Council of Seventy or a onetime Institute teacher that seems to endorse x. Seldom if ever, by the way, a passage that the challenger discovered on his or her own via serious research. Instead, it’s typically one that he or she came across while skimming through an anti-Mormon website.

Such conversations are tiresome and, in my opinion, quite without value. And I’m not much more enthusiastic about such conversations when they concern Islam, rather than my own faith.

Right now, one such conversation is going on elsewhere on the internet about whether Muslims worship Muhammad. To which the answer is, simply, that they don’t. Period. And I strongly suspect that, if the person asserting that they do were to line up, say, a thousand practicing Muslims of reasonable intelligence and to ask them “Do you worship Muhammad?” he would receive one thousand resolute negatives. Some of them perhaps a bit on the passionate side.

Do Muslims venerate Muhammad? Yes. Absolutely. Do they call down blessings upon him and upon his family and upon his “companions”? Yes, they commonly do. But there is a strong, bright line between that and actually worshiping him. To associate or join anything else with God in worship is considered shirk (شِرْك) — pronounced sheerk: literally, “association,” but, more broadly, “polytheism” — and shirk is the worst sin, indeed the unforgivable sin, in the lexicon of Islam.

One area I think I disagree with Dan on is about the criticism of Mormonism by ex-Mormons. For example, talk of “Smithmas” here.

Rather than a bunch of evangelicals claiming Mormons worship Joseph Smith, it’s a bunch of former Mormons who themselves spent years singing “Praise to the Man.” I think it’s easy to dismiss ex-Mormon critics, but the truth is that almost everyone here was at one time as faithful and believing as DCP himself. I think that gives them a little more credibility.
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ceeboo
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Re: Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

Post by ceeboo »

Below quotes are DCP quotes:


I can’t count the number of conversations about my own religious beliefs that I’ve had with others, especially with often quite exercised evangelical Protestants.....
As someone who has had a few brief engagements with DCP, many moons ago, this part of his statement made me smile.
Right now, one such conversation is going on elsewhere on the internet about whether Muslims worship Muhammad. To which the answer is, simply, that they don’t. Period.
In my mind, your opinion is more than welcome on the collective table of opinions/ideas - as it ought to be for anyone interested in weighing all available information to draw certain conclusions. Like all opinions (no matter the worldview of the person providing these various opinions to be considered) many times the individual opinion of one person does not align with the individual opinion of another person (Thus we typically refer to these things as individual opinions - Rather than attempting to mask such an opinion as a factual statement like "To which the answer is, simply, that they don't. Period."

And I strongly suspect that, if the person asserting that they do were to line up, say, a thousand practicing Muslims of reasonable intelligence and to ask them “Do you worship Muhammad?” he would receive one thousand resolute negatives. Some of them perhaps a bit on the passionate side.
If this person who is strongly asserting such a thing (a.k.a. - me) did line up these thousand practicing Muslims of reasonable intelligence, I would suspect that they would react precisely how you have suggested that they would. No worries there.

What would this exercise determine? If these thousand Muslims were to react as you suggest they would (to be clear, I think they would) what conclusions should we/you/I/anyone draw from such an exercise?

If I were to borrow your "thousand practicing Muslims of reasonable intelligence" and ask them "Did Muhammed marry Aisha at age six and consummate this marriage at age nine?" - Would I get one thousand resolute negatives as well? With some of them being on the bit more passionate side?

You see, truth is not found by asking questions to a group of people that happen to share a common belief (I would include my own personal beliefs in this as well) - Rather, in my opinion, truth is found (and can be determined) by looking into the facts surrounding particular claims/practices/positions.
To associate or join anything else with God in worship is considered shirk (شِرْك) — pronounced sheerk: literally, “association,” but, more broadly, “polytheism” — and shirk is the worst sin, indeed the unforgivable sin, in the lexicon of Islam.
If we were engaging one another (an environment where we could respond back and forth) I would be curious about your opinions relating to the Kaaba/black stone in Mecca.
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Re: Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

Post by Morley »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2024 4:35 pm
Morley wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2024 3:33 pm


Ceeboo, stepping back from this for a moment, I'll ask, why does this matter to you? Why are you fixated on expressing your opinion on the manner and form of Muslim prayer? Why would you even care about how Muslims pray or what they believe? You have not been, nor will you ever be, a Muslim. You're not interested in the religion or culture enough to really investigate either. I don't understand why this is such a concern for you.
Truth matters to me - And I think truth is objective - we all don't get to have our own truth (That's why I am a Christian - I believe Jesus rose from dead and is Lord/God - And I believe it's obviously true) - I care about human beings - I care if human beings are being deceived and/or lead astray.

Muhammed (like Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith, Ron Hubbard, etc) use Jesus - they dilute Jesus (I think much of this is demonic, literally). In this particular discussion, I am trying to challenge people who follow Muhammed/Quran - I am trying to have people evaluate what is found in the Quran - I am trying to challenge people to evaluate the character/morals of Muhammed - I am trying to challenge people to weigh Muhammed/Quran against Jesus/collection of 66 books we call the Bible.

If someone measures/compares/evaluates these things on the same scale and they find that they are equal (both true - neither true - both nonsense - whatever), then, I accomplished what I wanted to accomplish and I can do no more.

At the end of the day, I am a Christian and if I believe what I claim that I do, how awful would it be for me to NOT express my opinions about these things?

I hope that made some sense and was a bit helpful.

Thanks for replying.
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Re: Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

Post by ceeboo »

Morley wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2024 3:02 pm
Thanks for replying.
No worries.
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Re: Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

Post by Morley »

ceeboo wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:40 pm
Rather than attempting to mask such an opinion as a factual statement like "To which the answer is, simply, that they don't. Period.

Ah, but it is a factual statement--unless you believe that those 1000 people are lying. You seem to be saying that you think they're all lying.

Prayer is contained wholly in the intention. Whatever words are uttered, they only mean what the person who utters them intends them to mean. Sometimes people pray silently, with no words: It's still a prayer. Sometimes it's just a feeling in their hearts. It can still be a prayer. To critique an individual's communication with God, and tell them that what they're saying something other than what they believe they're saying, is pretty offensive.
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Re: Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

Post by Gadianton »

While the algorithm probably saddled me with it due to having viewed the antagonistic Christian apologist berating Muslims calling into his show yesterday (in order to learn about the "worship Mohamad" claim), I ended up watching Johnny Harris's latest documentary, which is about "the Line" in Saudi Arabia last night as I was zoning out. I wasn't entirely sure what his point was, as he seems to be meandering into visuals and production rather than investigative reporting, but it was definitely well done in that regard.

As it went, Johnny went to Saudi Arabia to visit the construction site for the Line. He stayed in tents around the area with the tribe of a friend of his who is a Bedouin, and caught between the world of his tribe and the modern world. He contracts for builders. Given Johnny is a former Mormon, I thought he might mention Lehi, but he didn't.

The tribesman were generous hosts as one might expect, and Johnny ate very well. The tribe drank coffee and tea all day and night, and that aspect was difficult for Johnny due to the caffeine (Nibley left that part out of Lehi in the Desert). The documentary seemed to be more about the tension between the old ways and new ways than anything else, rather than investigating the purpose of the Line. The folks he stayed with aren't allowed to talk politics, and certainly not on camera, and so he didn't press them, and you have to wonder what they would really be able to tell us about the Line's purpose anyway. He was interviewing the wrong people. He didn't have an explanation for the Line beyond what anyone would assume -- gotta do something post oil.

But the scenery and the interaction between Johnny and the tribesmen was certainly worth the watch. For the most part their interaction was friendly and respectful. One of the elders of the tribe said he hadn't seen Westerners in years, and never for business outside of oil, and so they were genuinely curious about Johnny. The same elder made sure Johnny got all the best pieces of meat as they ate. I guess Johnny had learned some things post-Mormon, and while the tribe was generous with their food and comradery, Johnny returned the favor by being generous with the truth.

As they do, the tribesmen would take leave of Johnny and go to another tent during prayer, and they were courteous and subtle about it, "hey, we've got to -- you know..." and yes, it was all good. During one episode, Johnny stepped out and listened to the prayers going on in the other tent. He'd picked up some basic Arabic from an Internet site and listened for what they were saying. At a certain point during the prayers he became confused. "They can't be saying what I think they are...not on my watch," he whispered to the viewers. Finally, he couldn't take it, he had the truth and it would be selfish if he didn't share it, and so he burst into the prayer tent and shouted, "ʿalayhi s-salām -- is that what you just said?! Do you guys even know what that means? You are praying to Mohamad! I thought you believe in one God? This is a glaring contradiction and I'm incredibly disturbed!"

The tribesmen were quite baffled but Johnny persisted, "You need to learn the truth before you wind up in the Pit of hell the book of Revelations talks about! Jesus is Lord! He's the only one who can save you!"

(just kidding!!! :lol: I made up the part about Johnny interrupting the prayers. I was exploring the credibility of somebody believing that they have a serious interest in "facts and truth" and then criticizing the manner of prayer of people of cultures they know nothing about aside from what their pastor told them.)
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Re: Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

Post by Morley »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2024 10:08 pm
Dan posted another entry about this:


For me, one of the most important principles in writing about the religious beliefs of others is this one: Those about whose religious beliefs one is writing should be able to recognize their religious beliefs in what has been written.

They may say that the author has expressed one or more elements of their belief in a somewhat unaccustomed way. That happens sometimes. But they should be able to recognize it as their own. One of the best compliments that I’ve occasionally received from Muslims about my writings on Islam is that I’ve gotten it “right.”

I would be quite unhappy if they were to have said the opposite. If the person whose religious faith has been “explained” is protesting “No! no! no! That’s not right! It’s not accurate! We don’t believe that!” then the wannabe explainer hasn’t done it right.

I can’t count the number of conversations about my own religious beliefs that I’ve had with others, especially with often quite exercised evangelical Protestants, in which they’ve said to me “You believe x!” and I’ve responded not only that, no, I don’t believe x but that, in fact, I’m unaware of anybody in my church who believes x. To which the challenger then responds “But that’s what your church teaches!” To which I’ve replied that, in all of my (now) many decades as a member and a missionary and a teacher and a writer and a sometime leader for my church, and as a long-time resident of Utah and a long-time professor of my church’s flagship university, I’ve never taught or been taught x as Church doctrine.” “Well, that’s still what your church believes!” answers the challenger. And, sometimes, if the challenger is especially well-equipped, he or (very occasionally) she will present me with a decontextualized supporting quotation from Journal of Discourses 14:234 or from an obscure 1950s book by a long forgotten member of the First Council of Seventy or a onetime Institute teacher that seems to endorse x. Seldom if ever, by the way, a passage that the challenger discovered on his or her own via serious research. Instead, it’s typically one that he or she came across while skimming through an anti-Mormon website.

Such conversations are tiresome and, in my opinion, quite without value. And I’m not much more enthusiastic about such conversations when they concern Islam, rather than my own faith.

Right now, one such conversation is going on elsewhere on the internet about whether Muslims worship Muhammad. To which the answer is, simply, that they don’t. Period. And I strongly suspect that, if the person asserting that they do were to line up, say, a thousand practicing Muslims of reasonable intelligence and to ask them “Do you worship Muhammad?” he would receive one thousand resolute negatives. Some of them perhaps a bit on the passionate side.

Do Muslims venerate Muhammad? Yes. Absolutely. Do they call down blessings upon him and upon his family and upon his “companions”? Yes, they commonly do. But there is a strong, bright line between that and actually worshiping him. To associate or join anything else with God in worship is considered shirk (شِرْك) — pronounced sheerk: literally, “association,” but, more broadly, “polytheism” — and shirk is the worst sin, indeed the unforgivable sin, in the lexicon of Islam.

One area I think I disagree with Dan on is about the criticism of Mormonism by ex-Mormons. For example, talk of “Smithmas” here.

Rather than a bunch of evangelicals claiming Mormons worship Joseph Smith, it’s a bunch of former Mormons who themselves spent years singing “Praise to the Man.” I think it’s easy to dismiss ex-Mormon critics, but the truth is that almost everyone here was at one time as faithful and believing as DCP himself. I think that gives them a little more credibility.
Thank you for posting this. Though I often disagree with him, I always appreciate Daniel's viewpoint.
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Re: Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

Post by ceeboo »

Morley wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2024 3:26 pm
ceeboo wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:40 pm
Rather than attempting to mask such an opinion as a factual statement like "To which the answer is, simply, that they don't. Period.

Ah, but it is a factual statement--unless you believe that those 1000 people are lying. You seem to be saying that you think they're all lying.
No, I do not think they are lying - Just like when a large group of Mormons tell me that they know Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and that the Book of Mormon is true - I don't think they are lying either. Rather, it is something else at play, in my opinion.
To critique an individual's communication with God, and tell them that what they're saying something other than what they believe they're saying, is pretty offensive.
First of all, my intention was/is never rooted in offense. Sometimes, when discussing personal beliefs/worldviews, people can be offended.

Secondly, I am not critiquing an individual communication with God - I am offering my opinion about the commanded and common practice of salat and what each and every person recites while practicing said salat.

An individual communication with God is an entirely different thing than millions of people praying "Peace be unto you, O prophet" during salat.

Lastly, I am a bit curious/perplexed over this seeming concern over offending Muslims. Given the hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times that I have read highly negative/offensive things on this board about Christians and/or the Bible that have had extremely little push back (other than from Christians). Have you found any of this offensive as well? If so, have you posted your challenge/protest?
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Re: Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

Post by drumdude »

I’m not particularly worried about offending Muslims. I think there’s a lot to criticize Islam for, where things go wrong in my opinion is when the critics (like a lot of evangelicals) set up straw men and knock them down in an attempt to prop up their own pet religious beliefs.

As this board is mostly made of atheists, a lot of us believe that Islam and Christianity are basically equally wrong. Just in their own unique ways.
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Re: Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

Post by ceeboo »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2024 4:17 pm
I’m not particularly worried about offending Muslims. I think there’s a lot to criticize Islam for, where things go wrong in my opinion is when the critics (like a lot of evangelicals) set up straw men and knock them down in an attempt to prop up their own pet religious beliefs.
I'm not implying anything by the coming question - just seeking clarity - do you think I am setting up straw men and knocking then down to prop up my own pet religious beliefs?
As this board is mostly made of atheists, a lot of us believe that Islam and Christianity are basically equally wrong. Just in their own unique ways
Understood.

But it still seems to me that (generally speaking - not speaking to you directly) Muslim/Muhammed/Quran is treated differently than Christian/Jesus/Bible on the board. Perhaps this is because the former is rarely discussed on the board? Or, perhaps I am just wrong about how things seem to me? I dunno, just curious/perplexed.
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