The idea of a Restoration of Christ’s New Testament “church” was unoriginal

[malkie]

Welcome to mentalgymnast's world.

It never does.

Circular logic is baked into Mormonism and a good example is Moroni's promise. You have to ask with a sincere heart which is code for the believer must already established the belief beforehand. Another one is making the assertion that Mormonism is true because Joseph is a prophet of god because Joseph said he was a prophet of god.

The "promise" also tells you right away that Mormonism was not expected to appeal to non-Christians:

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

True story:

When I was branch president in Scotland, missionaries came to my home several times a week, either just for a short break, or for a friendly face, or (quite often) for a meal.

They told us one day about a family they were "teaching" who lived near us, and were Hindu. They seemed like really nice, good people. We met them a couple of times. The missionaries were puzzled by the family's apparent lack of answers to prayers. When they pressed the father for details, he took them into a room, and showed them his shrine, complete with pictures, incense, and food offerings for the god(s) they believed in. This is where he prayed to learn the "truth" about the teachings of the missionaries. Something like this:


Svu kerala
Devi bhakta, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons

In a way I cannot blame the missionaries - two Utah "boys" with no experience of the outside world, but talk about cultural insensitivity ...

Eventually, as you might expect, the family stuck to its cultural roots, and the missionaries moved on.

[Limnor]

The "promise" also tells you right away that Mormonism was not expected to appeal to non-Christians:

This is interesting insight that fits.

I’m trying to imagine a response from Krishna, something like: “truth doesn’t ask who you’re praying to”?

[Rivendale]

The "promise" also tells you right away that Mormonism was not expected to appeal to non-Christians:

This is interesting insight that fits.

I’m trying to imagine a response from Krishna, something like: “truth doesn’t ask who you’re praying to”?

It does seem like truth funneling doesn't it? I think it speaks to the gate keeping phenomenon. The heresy of not believing in the trinity or the utter contempt that god was once a man.

[bill4long]

Hindus have all the fun.

Although Japanese and Catholics do pretty well too.

[PseudoPaul]

No, of course not.

Of course...why?

Regards,
MG

Obviously death is permanent. No one comes back from the dead.

[PseudoPaul]

Christianity can and has had those qualities (eschatological, justice, etc), but it leaves out the Judaism. And adds the atonement theology, which has nothing to do with Jesus at all.

I realize Paul that your view here is neither dumb or thoughtless. I find I have grown to see the matter in the opposite way. I think Jesus was all about atonement. It is difficult to debate so I am not going to prove you wrong but might enjoy exploring the matter.

What do you think was so important about temple worship he would risk his life to criticize it.

The temple was run by the Sadducees, who were wealthy and powerful, and collaborating with Roman power. Jesus was against all of those things - in his view only the poor and meek would inherit the kingdom of God.

[PseudoPaul]

We can make reasonable inferences from the most plausibly historical sayings found in the synoptic gospels.

As you said, you are relying on only what you've read that has its origins around 2000 years ago. Believing in a man who claimed to be the Son of God that long ago based on old writings is a difficult task, granted. You are not alone.

On the other hand, there are many who view Jesus of Nazareth as being God's only begotten Son in the flesh and the redeemer of all mankind. Even those that don't believe in Him or the resurrection.

Regards,
MG

It's not quite as difficult as you're making out. Viewing the text through the lense of historical scholarship, we can at least separate out the sayings that are plausibly historical from the ones not plausibly historical.

Jesus didn't think of himself as God or a divine being. He thought he was the soon to be King of Israel. Jesus didn't predict his own death and resurrection, otherwise his disciples wouldn't have been caught so flat footed when he was arrested and executed.

[Morley]

PseudoPaul (whom I sometimes think of as "sudo Paul")

Love this.

[Gadianton]

I'm asking about the size of the church and whether or not that "matters"

I think MG forgets that we all grew up getting told by primary and seminary teachers that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in the world. I suppose if MG could go back in time, he'd tell all of his teachers that they can't count Mormonism's successes as evidence of its truth. Right, MG?

[MG 2.0]

What do/would you see as a logical scenario of events within the confines/reality of the world as it was anciently (and how it had evolved/developed) and as the world is now in which the true Church of Jesus Christ (assuming that there might be one) would be anything more/different than what it is (assuming that the CofJCofLDS is God's church/organization) ?

Human minds cannot or at least should not be forced. History cannot be rewritten, cultures and societies developed independently from one another. Evolutionary factors are of course natural and expected.

Agency reigns supreme.

Where, when, and how would you expect that the true church of Jesus Christ would be bigger than it is? Again, on the hypothetical that the Mormon missionaries are teaching the truth.

Regards,
MG

MG. l suppose if you assume the churches God established in the first century lost God's favor and God wanted to start a new church he liked in 19th century America then it is possible such church could be the size of the LDS church. Growth takes time.

This is reasonable if you accept the assumptions. I doubt physics Guy finds these reasonable assumptions. In referencing size I think he means if God cares about his church he would not abandon the first ones.

That's what I'm pretty much saying. Jesus planted the seeds knowing that Christianity, as it was and is, would be the result. Through that process, which brought about its own success in the lives of people, the seed was nurtured and matured. When the time and place for the restoration of all things was ripe, then the fullness was able to be 'planted' with the knowledge that there would be no withering away.

We are fortunate to live in that time.

Not to discount at all the influence of the Creator in the lives of all mankind. All people are born to purpose in choosing between opposites that can lead one to happiness.

Again, I'm hearing comments that seem to point towards a binary way of seeing the world. I'm suggesting that we look at the world as it was (as much as possible) and as it is.

My argument is simply that the CofJCofLDS is playing an important part/role in God's overall plan for His children/creations. But that plan is much bigger than the binary either/or that some might like to think and argue for.

Geez, look at the world, people!

Regards,
MG