The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

[_Res Ipsa]

I did find one once, though. I went shopping at a local department store. When I got home, in the bag with my clothes was a bag full of money. What would you do?

Actually, now that I think about it I did find a $100 bill on the floor at the Fort Irwin PX back in the day. I turned it in because I didn't think $100 was worth my integrity. They called me back after 90 days, and since no one claimed it they gave it to me. That was nice of them to be honest on their part.

As far as your scenario goes I'm keepin' that crap. Guess we know my integrity can be bought with a bag and some money in it. Lol.

- Doc

Let's add some detail. Suppose the shopping trip was with one of your 13 year old daughters and she found the bag and brought it to you.

[_Jersey Girl]

A few years ago my wife and I were exploring Grand Staircase National Monument. There are many unexcavated Anasazi ruins out there. An archeologist friend told me about one and we set out to find it. It was very remote.

While having a walk around this undisturbed 800+ year old site, I spotted a large piece of turquoise half buried in the soil. I picked it up and it was a large piece that had been carved and polished into the shape of an egg. Absolutely the most amazing artifact I have ever run across. It would have been worth quite a bit.

It took every ounce of integrity I had to put it back into the depression I found it in instead of my pocket. And I'm an agnostic!

Because of the remoteness of this site, I think there is a good chance it's still there where I left it (hmm, excuse me, I think I need to go gas up the Jeep).

Could you just send me a map of the area? You know, just so I can see where you were hiking and all? Also would you mind pinpointing the location of the turquoise piece on the map? I might want to admire it when if I go there. Hiking.

With a shovel.

[_Res Ipsa]

I did find one once, though. I went shopping at a local department store. When I got home, in the bag with my clothes was a bag full of money. What would you do?

A few years ago my wife and I were exploring Grand Staircase National Monument. There are many unexcavated Anasazi ruins out there. An archeologist friend told me about one and we set out to find it. It was very remote.

While having a walk around this undisturbed 800+ year old site, I spotted a large piece of turquoise half buried in the soil. I picked it up and it was a large piece that had been carved and polished into the shape of an egg. Absolutely the most amazing artifact I have ever run across. It would have been worth quite a bit.

It took every ounce of integrity I had to put it back into the depression I found it in instead of my pocket. And I'm an agnostic!

Because of the remoteness of this site, I think there is a good chance it's still there where I left it (hmm, excuse me, I think I need to go gas up the Jeep).

Reminds me of this story. http://www.radiolab.org/story/seed-jar/ I think you'd enjoy it, Quasi.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Let's add some detail. Suppose the shopping trip was with one of your 13 year old daughters and she found the bag and brought it to you.

That's actually an interesting development. For example, you mentioned returning the wallet in tact was most likely because one knows the owner is personally invested in it whereas a bag full of money is abstract; it could be grandma's life savings or it could be MS-13's weekly take from their community outreach programs.

For me the wallet represents a real, tangible, relatable asset that I myself would feel a deep sense of relief getting back. So, the Golden Rule is easily acted out.

So, to the point, given the ideological gift of knowing the universe is meaningless, there are no eternal repercussions for doing good or bad, and that one acts within a created purpose or morality I would take the opportunity to discuss the scenario with my daughter. It'd be a good exercise to flesh out her worldview a bit, discuss the various possibilities under which this bag came to exist and why we're in possession of it, benefits and consequences of our actions, and then make a mutual decision together that empowers what we discussed. The money bag now becomes an object lesson for her and an opportunity to develop abstract thinking.

I could see one of my daughters opting to keep it and keep the whole thing under wraps while the other daughter would be a little more altruistic and turn it into the authorities with the hopes that no one will claim it.

- Doc

[_Res Ipsa]

Let's add some detail. Suppose the shopping trip was with one of your 13 year old daughters and she found the bag and brought it to you.

That's actually an interesting development. For example, you mentioned returning the wallet in tact was most likely because one knows the owner is personally invested in it whereas a bag full of money is abstract; it could be grandma's life savings or it could be MS-13's weekly take from their community outreach programs.

For me the wallet represents a real, tangible, relatable asset that I myself would feel a deep sense of relief getting back. So, the Golden Rule is easily acted out.

So, to the point, given the ideological gift of knowing the universe is meaningless, there are no eternal repercussions for doing good or bad, and that one acts within a created purpose or morality I would take the opportunity to discuss the scenario with my daughter. It'd be a good exercise to flesh out her worldview a bit, discuss the various possibilities under which this bag came to exist and why we're in possession of it, benefits and consequences of our actions, and then make a mutual decision together that empowers what we discussed. The money bag now becomes an object lesson for her and an opportunity to develop abstract thinking.

I could see one of my daughters opting to keep it and keep the whole thing under wraps while the other daughter would be a little more altruistic and turn it into the authorities with the hopes that no one will claim it.

- Doc

Object lesson is a good description of how I thought about it at the time. Interestingly, my son (I used daughters up above because you've talked about them before) never seemed to consider keeping the money as an option. (Of course, I don't know what he would have done if he'd discovered it alone.)

The kicker for me was the concern that returning the money might be the difference between the cashier getting fired and keeping her job. That was an angle my son hadn't thought of, and I think it was good for him (and for me) to think through how a simple decision could have an impact on fellow humans.

The other weird part of the whole incident for me is to think through what I would have done if there had only been a dollar in the bag? Would I have gone through the hassle of driving back to the store to return it?

Just to fill in, my son and I went shopping together because we both needed clothes. I don't remember which of us found the bag, but it was in the process of divvying up our stuff. The money was from our cashier's till -- the bag was supposed to be picked up from her till and taken to the safe. I still have no idea how it got in with our purchases. I don't recall how much was in it, but it was more than $100 and less than $500. We returned it to customer service, as neither of us could recall what the cashier looked like or even which line we'd gone through.

The young guy working customer service seemed genuinely shocked that we'd returned it. I think that's sad.

[_Quasimodo]

A few years ago my wife and I were exploring Grand Staircase National Monument. There are many unexcavated Anasazi ruins out there. An archeologist friend told me about one and we set out to find it. It was very remote.

While having a walk around this undisturbed 800+ year old site, I spotted a large piece of turquoise half buried in the soil. I picked it up and it was a large piece that had been carved and polished into the shape of an egg. Absolutely the most amazing artifact I have ever run across. It would have been worth quite a bit.

It took every ounce of integrity I had to put it back into the depression I found it in instead of my pocket. And I'm an agnostic!

Because of the remoteness of this site, I think there is a good chance it's still there where I left it (hmm, excuse me, I think I need to go gas up the Jeep).

Could you just send me a map of the area? You know, just so I can see where you were hiking and all? Also would you mind pinpointing the location of the turquoise piece on the map? I might want to admire it when if I go there. Hiking.

With a shovel.

Sure! It's just a little a little North and East of the center of this map.

[_Lemmie]

I know that I did mention, something to the effect, that I believe the possibility exists that there is a greater likelihood that agnostic/atheists may not find that lying is a sin in the sense that God is holding them accountable for telling the truth, etc. That they might find it easier to twist the truth and/or omit facts, etc....

I believe that it's easier for someone who doesn't think/believe that they are accountable to God for the things they say or do to 'make stuff up' and then have very little remorse or conscience for doing so....

You said that even an agnostic/atheist would see lying as bad. I question that. Not if the end justifies the means.

Regards,
MG

To tell you the truth though, if you haven't already figured it out, I don't really like the pigeon holing that goes on. "OK guys, this person is a 1, 2, or 3. Which is it?" I think people are generally a bit more complicated/complex than that. Categorizing folks seems to place some kind of a simplicity/labeling that is static in nature. And of course, over and over...if you've read my posts...I'm not one that's much on staticticity (that's possibly a made up word, but I like it. It is SO limiting.
viewtopic.php?p=947070#p947070

[_Res Ipsa]

The most important thing MG has posted in this thread is:

Not being an agnostic/atheist it is hard for me to get inside your mind.

Had he just stopped there, he might have learned something.

[_Quasimodo]

Reminds me of this story. http://www.radiolab.org/story/seed-jar/ I think you'd enjoy it, Quasi.

That does sound interesting, Res! I looked it up on Amazon. It needs a read.

I used to hunt arrowheads as a kid. I got quite good at it. I had boxes of them (I still have them). I realized at an early age that I wasn't collecting. I was stealing history from everyone. Once an artifact is removed from its original location without professional documentation, it has lost all its historic importance. Still, avarice nearly overcame me with that turquoise egg.

[_Gadianton]

I know that I did mention, something to the effect, that I believe the possibility exists that there is a greater likelihood that agnostic/atheists may not find that lying is a sin in the sense that God is holding them accountable for telling the truth, etc. That they might find it easier to twist the truth and/or omit facts, etc....

I believe that it's easier for someone who doesn't think/believe that they are accountable to God for the things they say or do to 'make stuff up' and then have very little remorse or conscience for doing so....

You said that even an agnostic/atheist would see lying as bad. I question that. Not if the end justifies the means.

You just finished arguing that God lied to Holland because the ends justified the means. Unbelievable, lol.