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A number of days ago, someone at RFM reposted a quote from Tal Bachman made sometime earlier.

The actual post was quite long, but I can abbreviate it effectively enough, I think.

Tal addressed one of the apologists' favorite arguments: The anti-presentist argument. You know, the which goes "It's wrong to judge Joseph Smith by our modern 21st Century moral standards. We must judge Joseph Smith by his own 19th Century standards."

The problem with this apologetic stance, according to Tal, is twofold:

FIRST, this implies that society is becoming increasingly moral as time goes on. Or, in other words, we are all becoming more moral than we were before. HOWEVER, the prophets and apostles repeatedly and obsessively tell us that our society's morals are getting worse all the time, that this generation is more wicked than the one in the days of Noah, etc. So, which is it? Are the apologists right and modern society more moral than ever before, or are the prophets right and modern society is less moral than ever before? [Or is this another instance of Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism?]

SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.

Dr. Shades wrote:A number of days ago, someone at RFM reposted a quote from Tal Bachman made sometime earlier.

The actual post was quite long, but I can abbreviate it effectively enough, I think.

Tal addressed one of the apologists' favorite arguments: The anti-presentist argument. You know, the which goes "It's wrong to judge Joseph Smith by our modern 21st Century moral standards. We must judge Joseph Smith by his own 19th Century standards."

The problem with this apologetic stance, according to Tal, is twofold:

FIRST, this implies that society is becoming increasingly moral as time goes on. Or, in other words, we are all becoming more moral than we were before. HOWEVER, the prophets and apostles repeatedly and obsessively tell us that our society's morals are getting worse all the time, that this generation is more wicked than the one in the days of Noah, etc. So, which is it? Are the apologists right and modern society more moral than ever before, or are the prophets right and modern society is less moral than ever before? [Or is this another instance of Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism?]

SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.

Quick! Toss the embattled mo'pologist a Bible CRUTCH before he collapses! "Wooool, if if you umm read in the Bible in that one verse when that one um prophet um gets, umm well...."

He's the man. Tal I mean. Smith was a pathetic twit.

Nort

Dr. Shades wrote:A number of days ago, someone at RFM reposted a quote from Tal Bachman made sometime earlier.

The actual post was quite long, but I can abbreviate it effectively enough, I think.

Tal addressed one of the apologists' favorite arguments: The anti-presentist argument. You know, the which goes "It's wrong to judge Joseph Smith by our modern 21st Century moral standards. We must judge Joseph Smith by his own 19th Century standards."

The problem with this apologetic stance, according to Tal, is twofold:

FIRST, this implies that society is becoming increasingly moral as time goes on. Or, in other words, we are all becoming more moral than we were before. HOWEVER, the prophets and apostles repeatedly and obsessively tell us that our society's morals are getting worse all the time, that this generation is more wicked than the one in the days of Noah, etc. So, which is it? Are the apologists right and modern society more moral than ever before, or are the prophets right and modern society is less moral than ever before? [Or is this another instance of Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism?]

SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.

The problem with this argument is you assume that the apoligetic argument centers on plural marriage only. If it does then you are right. If not then the argument makes more sense especially when used for Joseph Smith's involvement in treadure seeking and the like.

Jason

SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.[

Not so fast. They killed him becasue why exactly? Was it because they thought him immoral or feared his power or perhaps because they were immoral. Gee maybe the brilliant singer never thought of that Aye Tally my boy.

Jason

Nortinski wrote:He's the man. Tal I mean. Smith was a pathetic twit.

Nort

Another brilliant observation for the village, er I mean board, idiot.

Jason

Dr. Shades wrote:SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.

This really demonstrates the monoric content of this board. Men, painted as Indians or with faces blackened with gunpowder, stormed a jail with the express objective to commit a highly immoral act of depriving men of their lives without process. Only Joseph Smith was named in the arrest warrant, yet these men fired into the building knowing that it was filled with innocent men.

Joseph Smith was incarcerated only for the charge of "treason," a non-bailable offense. He had bailed out on other offenses all related to the Nauvoo Expositor. I assume by your comment that you consider "treason" an immoral act worthy of death, and that Smith didn't need a trial. I ask you, since RFM won't let me post, what act did Smith undertake which would have likely led to his conviction for treason?

Or, do you seriously believe that Smith didn't need a trial, and that he was appropriately lynched.

Plutarch wrote:

Dr. Shades wrote:SECOND, let's look at how Joseph was judged by his own 19th Century standards: They killed him! They couldn't even wait for a FAIR trial! According to 21st century standards, he was immoral and dishonest, but according to the morals of his own society, he was so bad that they outright killed him!

Kudos to Tal for putting it all into perspective.

This really demonstrates the monoric content of this board. Men, painted as Indians or with faces blackened with gunpowder, stormed a jail with the express objective to commit a highly immoral act of depriving men of their lives without process. Only Joseph Smith was named in the arrest warrant, yet these men fired into the building knowing that it was filled with innocent men.

Joseph Smith was incarcerated only for the charge of "treason," a non-bailable offense. He had bailed out on other offenses all related to the Nauvoo Expositor. I assume by your comment that you consider "treason" an immoral act worthy of death, and that Smith didn't need a trial. I ask you, since RFM won't let me post, what act did Smith undertake which would have likely led to his conviction for treason?

Or, do you seriously believe that Smith didn't need a trial, and that he was appropriately lynched.

Before you call anyone a moron, it would behoove you to understand what the thread is about. This thread isn't about Joseph's sojourn in Liberty Jail. This thread is about the difficulty in comparing morals between 19th and 21st century American society. Try to figure out the topic before you make disparaging comments about the posters and the board in general.

Shades was pointing out that Joseph was killed by the society at the time, a society that we are told was, by definition, better than our current society, since our current society is worse than the one that killed the Christ.

And incidently, Joseph was shot while trying to escape, not lynched. Do you have any comments about the real topic of the thread or can we assume you have no clue how presentism works either?

If you'd like to discuss Joseph's last days, go ahead and start another thread.

harmony wrote:

Plutarch wrote:

Forgive me for reacting to a direct quote in the opening post. I will do my best to figure out the unwritten rules around here.

Plutarch wrote:

harmony wrote:

Plutarch wrote:

Forgive me for reacting to a direct quote in the opening post.

go ahead and start another thread about Joseph's last days. Many of us have equally vehement opinions about that piece of Mormon history, and we could have an interesting discussion (although maybe you should start the thread in Telestial, since that subject tends to be one that brings out the flames).

I will do my best to figure out the unwritten rules around here.

It's not the unwritten rules that are the most helpful; it's the written ones. On this forum (Terrestial) we like to keep things civil, although we aren't perfect at that either. Sorry if you felt I was coming down too hard on you.