Why are we here?

[_Runtu]

It struck me today that when I was an apologist, I made exactly the same arguments that the apologists are making now, and it makes me wonder exactly what's going on here.

Are you defending the church because you genuinely believe it? Or are you defending it because you want to believe it but deep inside don't? Or do you simply enjoying debating, the truth be damned?

I suspect we all have our reasons for being here. I've been told I'm just trying to validate my apostasy, whatever that means. For me, I suppose I'm here partly because I enjoy talking about Mormonism and all its absurd, fascinating aspects and partly because I like to debate (not that I'm particularly good at it).

What do you think? Are we really here in search of truth? I suspect not.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I suspect we all have our reasons for being here.

I'm here because it provides an outlet I don't have anywhere else -- certainly not at Church. I've been active on LDS-related internet bb's since early 1998 because, despite my active faith and beliefs, I've also always had questions and doubts about certain LDS doctrines and history. I've always been fascinated by Church history -- all of it, including the warts; the watered-down version we so often get in official Church fora and publications seems so phony to me. So, in this way, I guess I am searching for "truth," or at least the ability to discuss, debate and question all sides of an issue, wherever it leads.

[_Runtu]

I suspect we all have our reasons for being here.

I'm here because it provides an outlet I don't have anywhere else -- certainly not at Church. I've been active on LDS-related internet bb's since early 1998 because, despite my active faith and beliefs, I've also always had questions and doubts about certain LDS doctrines and history. I've always been fascinated by Church history -- all of it, including the warts; the watered-down version we so often get in official Church fora and publications seems so phony to me. So, in this way, I guess I am searching for "truth," or at least the ability to discuss, debate and question all sides of an issue, wherever it leads.

I knew that about you, Rollo.

There's a reason the Sunday School version of Mormonism seems so phony: it is.

What got me thinking about this is that last night I got the distinct impression (maybe it was the spirit, who knows?) that some people are out to prove a point, no matter what. I hope I never get like that. Yes, I've come to certain conclusions about Mormonism, but they aren't set in stone, and I will readily admit when I'm wrong.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

What got me thinking about this is that last night I got the distinct impression (maybe it was the spirit, who knows?) that some people are out to prove a point, no matter what.

I suspect most of us are like that, based on whatever topic is near and dear to our individual hearts. For many TBM's, that is the truthfulness of Mormonism. Mormonism is so "all or nothing" in an eternal perspective that, in my opinion, it's easy to see why some folks are so extreme in their defense (or even those who criticize).

[_Runtu]

What got me thinking about this is that last night I got the distinct impression (maybe it was the spirit, who knows?) that some people are out to prove a point, no matter what.

I suspect most of us are like that, based on whatever topic is near and dear to our individual hearts. For many TBM's, that is the truthfulness of Mormonism. Mormonism is so "all or nothing" in an eternal perspective that, in my opinion, it's easy to see why some folks are so extreme in their defense (or even those who criticize).

You're probably right. One of the nice things about leaving the church was losing that all-or-nothing mentality. I can see a lot of the good in the church without having to accept the bad. I'm trying hard not to be too extreme in my criticism.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

What got me thinking about this is that last night I got the distinct impression (maybe it was the spirit, who knows?) that some people are out to prove a point, no matter what.

I suspect most of us are like that, based on whatever topic is near and dear to our individual hearts. For many TBM's, that is the truthfulness of Mormonism. Mormonism is so "all or nothing" in an eternal perspective that, in my opinion, it's easy to see why some folks are so extreme in their defense (or even those who criticize).

You're probably right. One of the nice things about leaving the church was losing that all-or-nothing mentality. I can see a lot of the good in the church without having to accept the bad. I'm trying hard not to be too extreme in my criticism.

Why not be here???

There is no truth...I see no good from any organized religion...everyone has the good in them...there is no good unless we want the goodness to come out...religion is not needed to have good....we are all that is needed for good.

[_rcrocket]

There is no truth...I see no good from any organized religion...everyone has the good in them...there is no good unless we want the goodness to come out...religion is not needed to have good....we are all that is needed for good.

So I guess you reject the organized religion described in the Pauline Epistles.

Or, do you read?

[_Sam Harris]

I suspect we all have our reasons for being here.

I'm here because it provides an outlet I don't have anywhere else -- certainly not at Church. I've been active on LDS-related internet bb's since early 1998 because, despite my active faith and beliefs, I've also always had questions and doubts about certain LDS doctrines and history. I've always been fascinated by Church history -- all of it, including the warts; the watered-down version we so often get in official Church fora and publications seems so phony to me. So, in this way, I guess I am searching for "truth," or at least the ability to discuss, debate and question all sides of an issue, wherever it leads.

I knew that about you, Rollo.

There's a reason the Sunday School version of Mormonism seems so phony: it is.

What got me thinking about this is that last night I got the distinct impression (maybe it was the spirit, who knows?) that some people are out to prove a point, no matter what. I hope I never get like that. Yes, I've come to certain conclusions about Mormonism, but they aren't set in stone, and I will readily admit when I'm wrong.

I know folks like that. Doubting like crazy, but convinced that if they can convince you, that'll convince them.

I'm here because I like to discuss things, learn things. I don't post too much, because Mormonism just doesn't effect me that much anymore.

I too have been told that I was looking to validate my apostacy. I just ignore it now.

[_beastie]

There are probably as many reasons to be here as there are people here. So generalizations are limited. Having said that, I'll share a few. ;)

Michael Shermer, in his book How We Believe, talked about the need believers have to justify their belief. Shermer speculates that people believe for personal/emotional reasons, but then construct rational arguments in order to feel good about what one already believes for personal reasons. These reasons to believe don't persuade anyone who doesn't already believe, but they provide reasons for believers to feel good about believing what they realize seems quite unbelievable to outsiders.

It seems to me that internet apologists/internet Mormons are as familiar with the problems within Mormon claims and its history as exmormons who lost faith because of those very issues. It seems inevitable that this creates a certain internal stress about continuing to believe despite all these issues. Apologists work very hard to just try and level the playing field, so to speak, to make it seem as rational to believe as to not believe, so the "spirit" provides the extra push over the edge. If that is one's goal - to just try and level the field - it seems to me one already realizes one's handicap.

And, of course, as others have already noted, in giving reasons to others to believe, and seeing those reasons bolster the faith of others, one can feel better oneself about one's belief.

Eric Hoffer also speculated that it is the believers who, deep down, are the MOST insecure about their beliefs who proselytize them most vigorously, again, in an attempt to further convince oneself.

As to why critics are here, perhaps it is to justify our apostasy to still believers. We were all deeply embedded in a worldview that claimed apostates were listening to Satan, wanting to sin, throwing away their heritage for trivial reasons of getting their little feelings hurt. Or they never really understood the gospel, or never really believed. Having spent so much time immersed in those notions, and then finding oneself disbelieving, it seems natural to me to want to say, yeah, but listen, I didn't listen to Satan, didn't leave to sin, etc. I know my original goal in talking to still believers was to try and help them to understand that it is possible for decent, sincere people to lose faith in Mormonism. Then, as I lost belief that was a feasible goal, I became interested in how believers continue believing despite knowing all these problems about Mormonism. How did they reason it out? Shermer again states that it is not really possible to understand human beings without seeking to understand religion and how we believe, and I think he is so correct about that.

But who really knows, in the end. People are often very good at hiding their own motivations from themselves. It seems to me that personal bias is likely to lead us to be unable to really understand one another's motives.

[_Gazelam]

I really enjoy discussing Doctrine. I discuss it with friends at work when possible, and I love to discuss it here.

ZLMB was getting a little thin in the membership, nice to hear new voices here and your insight.

Gaz