What If: Deseret Comes into Being 1849

[_Bond...James Bond]

One of the most amazing bits of LDS history that almost but didn't happen was the creation of Deseret.

click link for map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Deseret

Deseret was the proposed state that was to be created by the LDS church in 1849. It would have contained a large amount of the modern American West, including parts of at least 9 US states including Southern California (gobbling up much of the land won/taken during the Mexican War). This state in my opinion would have been much more powerful, as it included much more land (which has been found to have economic resources) and it also would have had port access and a border with Mexico, giving it much greater economic and political strength.

I also wonder if this would have been enough land, and would have tried to take the Pacific Northwest directly or indirectly by creating colonies.

In my mind this would have profound consequences in America's "Manifest Destiny" plan. It would have made Deseret one of the biggest states and a real power, with plenty of room for expansion.


Now we're not supposed to play "What If" history, but how does the board think the creation of Deseret would have affected the Mormon churches development, and the development of the United States.

Assume anything you want: No gold rush, no civil war, whatever you want (plausibly) that could have changed the way we see the church today.

Bond

[_moksha]

Adding to the what if, what if the proclaimed Kingdom of Deseret has been recognized and allowed to exist? That seems like a fairly scary thought, because I would be one of the subjects of this Kingdom. I presume we would ruled by one of Brigham Young's heirs.

[_Dr. Shades]

You can read about this in a book.

Harry Turtledove, widely considered the master of the Alternate History genre, has a series of books in which the State of Deseret exists. After the South wins the Civil War, the next book finds the German-allied U.S.A. and the British-allied C.S.A. on different sides of WWI and hostilities breaking out in North America all over again. The Mormons revolt and institute the State of Deseret. The State of Deseret begins actively opposing--and then becoming occupied by--the United States around the WWII era.

The State of Deseret is mentioned in the reviews for two books on this series here and here.

There's a WWII-based grand strategic-level wargame I play on the computer occasionally. If an enemy occupies the right portions of the United States, it has the option of creating the State of Deseret.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Adding to the what if, what if the proclaimed Kingdom of Deseret has been recognized and allowed to exist? That seems like a fairly scary thought, because I would be one of the subjects of this Kingdom. I presume we would ruled by one of Brigham Young's heirs.

will there be water in this desert..or dessert ...will there be toilets..will there be Mormons...I am one of Brigham Young's
Heirs...I kid you not....This one I am certain about...yuck I know...wil I get to rule the Deseret.....But I lost my Mormon CARD...But Ican still lead...scary thought having a BITCH for your leader...and a woman at that...


Don't have any bad dreams tonight....because I am not living in no Deseret...without water and my TiVo

[Anonymous]

There's a WWII-based grand strategic-level wargame I play on the computer occasionally. If an enemy occupies the right portions of the United States, it has the option of creating the State of Deseret.

Wow, Really??? what game? Creators must have had alot of knowledge to throw in a scrap of history like deseret.

More specifically, I've been trying to think what would happen if a theocratic state/country/whatever grew up right next to the first democracy?

Something tells me war eventually, because America in the 1850s was hellbent on reaching the Pacific (after all they had just taken the Southwest from Mexico). Unfortunately for the Church, something tells me that with America developing a professional army Deseret with its militia would have gone down.

Also makes me think that the Civil War would have been put off for a few years.

But of course Brigham and the rest were too smart to declare the land, and tried to use the correct procedure for statehood and ended up with modern Utah instead basically.

Bond

topping for shades.

Bond

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

And look at what UTAH has become....I hav heard that pretty soon you will have to show your Mormon CARD to get in...

you can get out...but to get back in you must show your Mormon CARD...that is okay I am fine with staying out of UTAH

But maybe I could buy a Mormon CARD on e-bay

[_Bond...James Bond]

And look at what UTAH has become....I hav heard that pretty soon you will have to show your Mormon CARD to get in...

you can get out...but to get back in you must show your Mormon CARD...that is okay I am fine with staying out of UTAH

But maybe I could buy a Mormon CARD on e-bay

I thought Utah was becoming more secular in places with people leaving the church and nonMormons moving in, even with Mormons moving back from states like California.

Any opinions on the state of Utah??

Bond

[_MormonMendacity]

That's an interesting question, Mr. Bond. I have done a lot of reading on the Deseret Alphabet over the past several years and because of that I think the Church has actually hurt itself in mainstreaming.

Two things: first, I think that the Church should have continued the perpetual immigration fund -- or something like it -- and continued to bring every person to the west that they could. If Brigham hadn't caused so much poverty by his own greed (okay everyone...it's just my opinion from what I've read!) I think that they would have owned the West without actually making the State of Deseret.

Second, I think that if he could have really gotten the Deseret Alphabet rolling he could have controlled the Saints even more. By controlling what people could read he would have a very powerful way of controlling thought. I do not believe he had the Deseret Alphabet invented to help immigrants learn English. I believe it was far more powerful as a tool to control.

Both of those things would have created a nation within a nation, much like the reservations made for the American Indians, but if it had become an economic powerhouse with those controls I think it would be more of a force to recon with.

There are too many free thinkers inside Mormonism today because of those two weaknesses, in my opinion.

[_Bond...James Bond]

That's an interesting question, Mr. Bond. I have done a lot of reading on the Deseret Alphabet over the past several years and because of that I think the Church has actually hurt itself in mainstreaming.

Two things: first, I think that the Church should have continued the perpetual immigration fund -- or something like it -- and continued to bring every person to the west that they could. If Brigham hadn't caused so much poverty by his own greed (okay everyone...it's just my opinion from what I've read!) I think that they would have owned the West without actually making the State of Deseret.

Second, I think that if he could have really gotten the Deseret Alphabet rolling he could have controlled the Saints even more. By controlling what people could read he would have a very powerful way of controlling thought. I do not believe he had the Deseret Alphabet invented to help immigrants learn English. I believe it was far more powerful as a tool to control.

Both of those things would have created a nation within a nation, much like the reservations made for the American Indians, but if it had become an economic powerhouse with those controls I think it would be more of a force to recon with.

There are too many free thinkers inside Mormonism today because of those two weaknesses, in my opinion.

I think the Deseret Alphabet was also about creating a new culture. With a more unique culture their claim to prehaps be a new country would have been much stronger.

I think that's the way Utah has been (or still is). Something of a pseudo or shadow government run by the Church. If you notice that map of Deseret is very close to the "Mormon corridor"/Jello Belt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jello_belt

Bond

[_Dr. Shades]

Wow, Really??? what game? Creators must have had alot of knowledge to know in a scrap of history like deseret.

It's called "Hearts of Iron II: Doomsday." It's the single best and most detailed grand strategic-level WWII computer game in existence. Nothing else even comes close.

The official site is here. You can get a pretty good overview via the trailer here.

And look at what UTAH has become....I hav heard that pretty soon you will have to show your Mormon CARD to get in...

you can get out...but to get back in you must show your Mormon CARD...that is okay I am fine with staying out of UTAH

Smart Bitch, where on earth did you get that idea?

Second, I think that if he could have really gotten the Deseret Alphabet rolling he could have controlled the Saints even more. By controlling what people could read he would have a very powerful way of controlling thought. I do not believe he had the Deseret Alphabet invented to help immigrants learn English. I believe it was far more powerful as a tool to control.

WOW, WOW, WOW!!! I had never made that connection before, but now that you mention it, it makes PERFECT sense! Here I'd thought the Deseret Alphabet was nothing more than a crackpot experiment, but I can now see that it was a form of Newspeak for truly Orwellian purposes.