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When I first heard that several Church prophets honestly believed that God came to earth and had sex with Mary, I was horrified.

And yet, this concept didn't seem to bother my husband at all.

Why is there such a different mindset on this among many TBM's?

liz3564 wrote:When I first heard that several Church prophets honestly believed that God came to earth and had sex with Mary, I was horrified.

And yet, this concept didn't seem to bother my husband at all.

Why is there such a different mindset on this among many TBM's?

Why would I be bothered by that if a prophet told me it was true? I might not understand but as a TBM I could accept anything if I truly believed it was from God.

Thinking was rarely required.

Why would I be bothered by that if a prophet told me it was true? I might not understand but as a TBM I could accept anything if I truly believed it was from God.

Thinking was rarely required.

So it was really that simple?

Am I really that far out of the norm? (Stop snickering, WK and GIMR! LOL)

liz3564 wrote:When I first heard that several Church prophets honestly believed that God came to earth and had sex with Mary, I was horrified.

And yet, this concept didn't seem to bother my husband at all.

Why is there such a different mindset on this among many TBM's?

Mormonism provides a whole panoply of options when it comes to rationalizing away unpleasant or embarrassing aspects of history and doctrine. It relates to the whole "no systematic theology" thing from the ironically named FAIRboard. One can view the GA statements as "not prophetic" and merely coming from man; one can say that the "sex" was "celestial" or merely "symbolic"; one can say that Mary was transfigured, etc. There is a whole range of ways to deal with it. The best one, in my opinion, is to just accept that this is the teaching, and that Heavenly Father and Mary really did go at it. Sex has long been a crucial (and radical, from an orthodox Christianity perspective) part of LDS theology, so why not celebrate that? The present Brethren mentality is too Victorian, and marked a wrong turn in LDS leadership, in my opinion, culminating in SWK's silly condemnations of, among other things, oral sex.

Mister Scratch wrote:

liz3564 wrote:When I first heard that several Church prophets honestly believed that God came to earth and had sex with Mary, I was horrified.

And yet, this concept didn't seem to bother my husband at all.

Why is there such a different mindset on this among many TBM's?

Mormonism provides a whole panoply of options when it comes to rationalizing away unpleasant or embarrassing aspects of history and doctrine. It relates to the whole "no systematic theology" thing from the ironically named FAIRboard. One can view the GA statements as "not prophetic" and merely coming from man; one can say that the "sex" was "celestial" or merely "symbolic"; one can say that Mary was transfigured, etc. There is a whole range of ways to deal with it. The best one, in my opinion, is to just accept that this is the teaching, and that Heavenly Father and Mary really did go at it. Sex has long been a crucial (and radical, from an orthodox Christianity perspective) part of LDS theology, so why not celebrate that? The present Brethren mentality is too Victorian, and marked a wrong turn in LDS leadership, in my opinion, culminating in SWK's silly condemnations of, among other things, oral sex.

Is it just me, or is it really telling that Mormons even have to discuss this topic? Why is it that of all the Christian religions out there, ours is the only one that speculates about the meaning of the word "virgin"?

Is it just me, or is it really telling that Mormons even have to discuss this topic? Why is it that of all the Christian religions out there, ours is the only one that speculates about the meaning of the word "virgin"?

I agree. As prudish as LDS are, our religion is more obsessed with sex than any other one I can think of. LOL

How many "Standards Nights" with a chastity theme did you attend growing up?

Good grief! As a teen-ager, how could you help but have sex on the brain? ;)

liz3564 wrote:

Is it just me, or is it really telling that Mormons even have to discuss this topic? Why is it that of all the Christian religions out there, ours is the only one that speculates about the meaning of the word "virgin"?

I agree. As prudish as LDS are, our religion is more obsessed with sex than any other one I can think of. LOL

How many "Standards Nights" with a chastity theme did you attend growing up?

Good grief! As a teen-ager, how could you help but have sex on the brain? ;)

No kidding. Once on FAIR there was a thread (I think started by charity) about TBM pet peeves. One was that critics say that the church is prudish and at the same time sex-obsessed. I pointed out that those two things are not mutually exclusive. It was met with silence.

Runtu wrote:

liz3564 wrote:

Is it just me, or is it really telling that Mormons even have to discuss this topic? Why is it that of all the Christian religions out there, ours is the only one that speculates about the meaning of the word "virgin"?

I agree. As prudish as LDS are, our religion is more obsessed with sex than any other one I can think of. LOL

How many "Standards Nights" with a chastity theme did you attend growing up?

Good grief! As a teen-ager, how could you help but have sex on the brain? ;)

No kidding. Once on FAIR there was a thread (I think started by charity) about TBM pet peeves. One was that critics say that the church is prudish and at the same time sex-obsessed. I pointed out that those two things are not mutually exclusive. It was met with silence.

LOL! And that surprises you how? ;)

liz3564 wrote:

Why would I be bothered by that if a prophet told me it was true? I might not understand but as a TBM I could accept anything if I truly believed it was from God.

Thinking was rarely required.

So it was really that simple?

Am I really that far out of the norm? (Stop snickering, WK and GIMR! LOL)

Just talking about myself on this one. It seemed so simple:

1. The Church is true.
2. The leaders represent the Church.
3. The thinking has been done.

Beyond that, all I did was keep trying to make sure I knew everything they said so that the thinking could truly be done!

That's why when Wade starts playing his Cognitive Distortion game I can only guess that he doesn't worry about paying his tithing, home teaching intermittently, shopping on Sundays and masturbating whenever he wants without the slightest bit of personal recrimination.

I think it must have been a different Church for some of us.

On one occasion when the apostles were met together, "Bartholomew?said to Peter, Andrew, and John, 'Let us ask [Mary] the favored one how she conceived the Lord and bore him.'" This was an embarrassing question, and no one was willing to approach Mary on the subject. "And Bartholomew said to Peter, 'You are the President and my teacher, you go and ask her!'" But Peter says Bartholomew himself should ask, and after much hesitation he approaches Mary on behalf of the other apostles, and she agrees to enlighten them.....

....."Peter said to Mary, 'Blessed one, please ask the Lord to tell us about the things that are in heaven.'" But Mary reminds Peter that as Adam has precedence over Eve, so it is his business to take the lead in such things. Having taken position in the circle, Mary begins to speak:

When I was in the Temple of God [a number of early sources report that Mary served in the Temple, like Samuel, as a child] ?there appeared to me one day a manifestation like an angel of unfamiliar aspect? And suddenly the veil of the Temple was rent and there was a great earthquake and I fell on my face unable to bear the sight of him. But he stretched forth his hand and raised me up, and I looked up to heaven and a dewy cloud came and [lacuna] moistened me from head to foot; and he wiped me off with his stole (robe, shawl) and said to me, "Greetings, thou favored one, chosen vessel!" and he grasped my right hand. And there was bread in abundance and he set it out on the altar of the Temple [cf. the shewbread], and he ate first and then gave to me. And he put forth his hand from his garment and there was wine in abundance, and he drank first and then gave to me, and I beheld and saw a full cup and bread. And he said to me, "In three years' time I shall send to you my Logos and you will bear a son, and through him all the creation will be saved? Peace to thee, my beloved, forever and ever." And suddenly he was gone from me, and the Temple was as it was before.

At this point the Lord himself appeared and commanded Mary "to utter no more of this mystery,"

(From the Gospel of Bartholomew)

Isa 7:14 reads: " Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. "

Mary was without question one of the greatest and most valiant in the pre-existence. Chosen from before the foundation of the world to bring into it, and care and nurture to maturity, the Savior of the world. In Luke we read the acount of the angel reminding her of her mission in this world:

Luke 1:28-35
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

What does it mean that the Holy Ghost should come upon her?

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

We expand upon this in Moses 1:1-2
1 The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain,
2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.

Because of the sanctifying effect of the Holy Ghost, a man or woman may bear the presence of the God. Nephi is instructed concerning the conception and birth of the Savior by the Holy Ghost.

1 Nephi 11:18-20
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

By the power of the Holy Ghost Mary dwelt for a time in the presence of the Father, and bore the Savior of the world after the manner of the flesh. through a mortal Mother the Savior inherited the death that came from the fall, and through an immortal Father Christ could choose when he died, and had the ability to take up his life again by way of ressurection.

Gaz