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Vegas has agreed by his PM to have this interview with me. Vegas' denunciations of Mormonism on this board are known to all. They sometimes seems crass, and even bitter. Nothing is sacred. So I'd like to start by asking about Vegas' background.

1) Were you BIC?

2) When did you first realise you could no longer believe in Mormonism? What started your cog.diss, or questioning, and how did this affect you and your family?

Feel free to expand or give any information not asked in the questions, though I have more to come.

PS to Shades: If this needs to eventually be moved to the Telestial forum, do so.

Another curiosity question. Is the pic in your avatar you?

His Avatar is Hunter S Thompson. Famous Author.

http://www.gonzo.org/

Gazelam wrote:His Avatar is Hunter S Thompson. Famous Author.

http://www.gonzo.org/

I don't know anything about Hunter S. Thompson. Maybe I should do broader internet search. But I'm curious why Vegas chose this avatar.

Ray A wrote:Vegas has agreed by his PM to have this interview with me. Vegas' denunciations of Mormonism on this board are known to all. They sometimes seems crass, and even bitter. Nothing is sacred. So I'd like to start by asking about Vegas' background.

1) Were you BIC?

Yes. My mother and father were endowed and married in the LA temple.

Ray A wrote:2) When did you first realize you could no longer believe in Mormonism? What started your cog.diss, or questioning, and how did this affect you and your family?

It began when I researched Mormonism on the internet, probably spring of 98. I asked questions and was fascinated by those evil damn exmormons. I couldn't stand their "facts" and there was nothing I could say or do to correctly counter their arguments without a little piece of me dying inside. I was frustrated even further when I read the journals and speeches from the prophets. I began seeing the LDS church as a business with a useless, damaging product.

My wife understands my frustration and she does not pressure me to attend. My Grandparents were crushed but now they don't bring my disillusionment up. My brother and I fought as we always did, he claiming the "offense" track. I never realized just how irrational and childish Mormons could be until I exchanged numerous emails with my brother regarding Mormonism. My father left the church after I did along with his wife. My mother had left the church years ago after my father and her divorced when I was 3-4.

My mission was pretty easy but difficult in the sense of my inability to swallow the controlling nature of it all. They torture you emotionally until you tearfully ask for more abuse, making you beg to be included in the group dynamic. I did not bend and that's why I had a difficult time.

Ray A wrote:Feel free to expand or give any information not asked in the questions, though I have more to come.

Born in las Vegas, 1979. Stopped attending meetings in spring of 2005. Never looked back, never felt better. Leaving Mormonism has opened opportunities and expanded my happiness exponentially. The day I threw my garments away was one of the happiest days of my life.

Ray A wrote:

Gazelam wrote:His Avatar is Hunter S Thompson. Famous Author.

http://www.gonzo.org/

I don't know anything about Hunter S. Thompson. Maybe I should do broader internet search. But I'm curious why Vegas chose this avatar.

While I do not agree with Hunter on alot of things I see a great deal of myself in his writing style. Reading Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas taught me a great deal of the culture my parents were from and the town they grew up in.

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas was a novel I could palatably feel beccause I had literally experienced the places he wrote about. The rest was pure Thompson.

Hunter represented a form of journalism called Gonzo Journalism:

Gonzo journalism is a style of reporting that mixes fiction and factual journalism. It uses a highly subjective style that often includes the reporter as part of the story via a first person narrative and events can be exaggerated in order to emphasize the underlying message.

The word gonzo was first used to describe a 1970 story written by Hunter S. Thompson, who later popularized the style. The term has since been applied in kind to other highly subjective artistic endeavors.

Gonzo journalism tends to favor style over accuracy and often uses personal experiences and emotions to provide context for the topic or event being covered. It disregards the 'polished' edited product favored by newspaper media and strives for the gritty factor. Use of quotes, sarcasm, humor, exaggeration, and even profanity is common. The use of Gonzo journalism portends that journalism can be truthful without striving for objectivity and is loosely equivalent to an editorial.

Other writers who have worked in "gonzo" mode include Jordan Kobos, William Godwin, and Matt Taibbi.

Gonzo journalism can be seen as an offshoot of the New Journalism movement in the sixties, led primarily by Tom Wolfe, and also championed by Lester Bangs and George Plimpton.

Although more a form of creative writing than journalism it represents a twisted form of observation that is more close to reality than some first hand accounts. Think about it before dismissing that claim.

VegasRefugee wrote:It began when I researched Mormonism on the internet, probably spring of 98. I asked questions and was fascinated by those evil damn exmormons. I couldn't stand their "facts" and there was nothing I could say or do to correctly counter their arguments without a little piece of me dying inside. I was frustrated even further when I read the journals and speeches from the prophets. I began seeing the LDS church as a business with a useless, damaging product.

You've mentioned this several times. That you think the church is nothing but a "useless business". Commercial and profiteering. Do you really think this is what motivates modern-day leaders? Are they out for profit, or because they really believe? Even if they are misguided.

My wife understands my frustration and she does not pressure me to attend. My Grandparents were crushed but now they don't bring my disillusionment up. My brother and I fought as we always did, he claiming the "offense" track. I never realized just how irrational and childish Mormons could be until I exchanged numerous emails with my brother regarding Mormonism. My father left the church after I did along with his wife. My mother had left the church years ago after my father and her divorced when I was 3-4.

Why did your parents leave? If that's not too personal. Was it because of your influence? Or did they see just like you did, and their decision was independent?

My mission was pretty easy but difficult in the sense of my inability to swallow the controlling nature of it all. They torture you emotionally until you tearfully ask for more abuse, making you beg to be included in the group dynamic. I did not bend and that's why I had a difficult time.

So the seeds of your departure have a long history. Was your eventual unbelief more culturally influenced, or doctrinally influenced, In other words, you thought it was a "business scam", but do you have any remaining spiritual belief in Mormonism? Do you see any good in the spiritual beliefs of Mormonism? Do you think it makes people better, or worse? If worse, how? Because of how your brother reacted?

Born in las Vegas, 1979. Stopped attending meetings in spring of 2005. Never looked back, never felt better. Leaving Mormonism has opened opportunities and expanded my happiness exponentially. The day I threw my garments away was one of the happiest days of my life.

So Mormonism was your "slave chain". Did you always feel this way? I mean, you served a mission. Why? Out of a sense of obligation? Or did you really believe at any time? Did you ever have a "witness" of the holy ghost? How did you dismiss that? Or did you eventually conclude it was all in your mind?

Later I'd like to ask some questions about your interest and expertise in computers. But for now, I'd like to see your replies to the above.

Ray A wrote:You've mentioned this several times. That you think the church is nothing but a "useless business". Commercial and profiteering. Do you really think this is what motivates modern-day leaders? Are they out for profit, or because they really believe? Even if they are misguided.

Its a mix. The main asset of Mormon gentry is the influence built around the church. All in all I think some see the organization of power that sustains the families holding power as a strong mechanism to hold their group dynamic together. Its an old boys club in which cash flow is obtained through guilt, false promises and systematic programming of each new customer. What I stand against is the oligarchy based in Utah who tell individuals that god will be mad if they are not paying their tithing. Local bishops and members are themselves supporting this oligarchy unwittingly. They are understandably unable to see the forest for the trees, still engaged in the idea that dissent spells doom for their eternal soul. In fact, dissent means one less paying customer to defraud. Is it illegal? No. Should it be? Maybee. Enrons fall was based on a stock getting valued higher than it actually was. Stock in Mormonism is valued on its end result, supposed eternal life. This is based on Joseph Smith and his PT Barnum tent meetings, individuals who have neither credibility or moral fortitude. Those who have valued the Mormon "stock" were basing this value on lies, half truth and (now) faith promoting rumors. Some unwittingly.

Some members of the "board of directors" might believe it but quite honestly the common belief is inferred to the "professional" Mormons, IE missionaries, area authorities, etc that the 12 see and talk with Christ and other "statements of reality" along those lines. This is more of an effect than a cause in respect to the typical TBM's outlook of the 12. In essence the Mormon sees the LDS leadership as the true top dawgs on earth, all others are subject to their wisdom. The "we talk to Christ" statement is not heard but is inferred when the leaders say they "!KNOW!" (insert withoutashadowofadoubt here) that Mormonism is the correct path. Its just as if a board member would address the stock holders and say they KNOW the stock is highly valued instead of tanking while they bail. What im getting at is that there is no way they are talking with Christ yet they persist in telling me that they have, literally, to my face.

Mormonism supports the Utah oligarchy the same way any company (or talent pool) can have a steady source of revenue, except its tax free with free labor. The Mormon oligarchy is a collection of families, businesses, corporations, relationships and trusts. The church creates a critical mass of investable income used to dispense contracts and influence. Its a social network. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about business will see their social network as their most powerful asset. If they don't they are not in business, but just jerking off.

Ray A wrote:Why did your parents leave? If that's not too personal. Was it because of your influence? Or did they see just like you did, and their decision was independent?

Its complicated. My father gained the courage to leave after I left. I was a small pebble that unlodged a mighty stone. My mothers been out for a while. that's even more complicated.

Ray A wrote:So the seeds of your departure have a long history. Was your eventual unbelief more culturally influenced, or doctrinally influenced, In other words, you thought it was a "business scam", but do you have any remaining spiritual belief in Mormonism?

I am what you would call an Agnostic. I say that because few "faithers" truly understand what this implies. It means I do not accept principals without first observing the benefit of such things.

I see nothing of worth within Mormonism that is original to the church. Most of Mormonism has been, like all religion, cobbled together from poorly interpreted Ethical systems and other religions. This is a Game Theory question.

The study of Anthropology contributed to the leveling of the playing field of perception. In my mind Mormonism became what it really is: just another belief system cooked up by men who wanted/needed to gain power. I say needed because its a human trait common to everyone. Mormons believe the same thing but they hold the belief that they are different. They are exempt from the fact that every single religion has been consistently wrong but THEY are the ones with the right story this time. Pathetic.

Ray A wrote:Do you see any good in the spiritual beliefs of Mormonism?

You already asked that :)

Your asking a question whether there is utility in Mormonism even though its flawed. The answer is (still) no.

Game theory "For the win"!

Ray A wrote:Do you think it makes people better, or worse? If worse, how? Because of how your brother reacted?

I can honestly say it makes people worse. Mormonism has a high potential for "excuse abuse". Also there are innumerable issues the church creates that are intrinsically linked to its doctrine/culture. For a list of these infractions look up my post history.

Ray A wrote:So Mormonism was your "slave chain".

Its more like a muzzle. A homophobic intolerant marginalized muzzle.

Ray A wrote: Did you always feel this way?

I saw Mormonism as a neccesary chore, like the DMV. Kind of a roman spiritual outlook really.

Ray A wrote:I mean, you served a mission. Why? Out of a sense of obligation? Or did you really believe at any time?

Yes,l I believed. Wholeheartedly. I felt like if I did not do it I would be unable to meet a "worthy" girl. I did it so my parents would accept me. I did it so I would not feel uncomfortable around my friends who had gone. It was pounded into me that if I did not go I would be a disappointment.

Ray A wrote:Did you ever have a "witness" of the holy ghost? How did you dismiss that? Or did you eventually conclude it was all in your mind?

I remember sitting in the tour at temple square when I was 9-10. I watched the emotional pump up they give and then I watched the animatronic joseph smith get a "vision from god". I came away with my primary testimony made stronger, made to believe that a good production value equated to truth. Later in life I nurtured it with warm fuzzies from firesides, camping trip testimonial meetings, etc.

After my mission I read Sagan, Shermer, Randi and many others. I studied hard science in depth and almost made a career out of it. I learned that emotion is no way to determine truth because emotion can be expertly manufactured. It WAS manufactured that day I sat in temple square watching a sister missionary say the same words she had told hundreds of groups before with the same lighting queues and musical moments that made the event pop. I had been told my whole life that joe saw god. Now it was in full disney-theme-park fashion in front of me, the truthiness oozing from its sappyness. Such a paltry and pathetic display of emotional manipulation.

Yes, it was all in my mind. A construct based on lies used to garner favor and power for joseph smith. The PT Barnum of nineteenth century american religion.

Thanks for the explanations. You're still a young man, in fact you'd be about the same age as my oldest son, who was also born in 1979. What I would like to know now is which books/information influenced your change of mind? What was the specific point, or experience, at which you lost your belief? When did that realisation set in? You said you threw out your garments in 2005, but were you suffering cog.diss for any length of time? Or was it a sort of overnight thing? Some people can vex over these issues for months, even years. It seems as though you came to a decision pretty quickly. It seems like you went from a believer to a trenchant critic almost overnight. But were these thoughts/realisations brewing in your mind for a long time?

Then there's the issue of anger. Did you feel anger straight away? Or was there some kind of initial shock, and the anger set in later? Some ex-Mormons say they felt embarrassed because of what they formerly believed.

Many questions, and one more again: Did you post on RFM? Where did you first vent on the net?

Ray A wrote:Thanks for the explanations. You're still a young man, in fact you'd be about the same age as my oldest son, who was also born in 1979. What I would like to know now is which books/information influenced your change of mind? What was the specific point, or experience, at which you lost your belief? When did that realisation set in? You said you threw out your garments in 2005, but were you suffering cog.diss for any length of time? Or was it a sort of overnight thing? Some people can vex over these issues for months, even years. It seems as though you came to a decision pretty quickly. It seems like you went from a believer to a trenchant critic almost overnight. But were these thoughts/realisations brewing in your mind for a long time?

Then there's the issue of anger. Did you feel anger straight away? Or was there some kind of initial shock, and the anger set in later? Some ex-Mormons say they felt embarrassed because of what they formerly believed.

Many questions, and one more again: Did you post on RFM? Where did you first vent on the net?

Reply coming soon...patience everyone