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Muslims and peace...

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:21 am
by _truth dancer
My experience is that there are those Muslims who do not interpret the Quran as some suggest they must (Kevin... smile).

The Muslims I know speak out for peace and speak out against terrorism. (With one exception who is in prison).

Here are a few links provided by my Mulsim friend who is very passionate about her religion and peace.

http://www.cair.com/default.asp

http://www.americanmuslims.information/archive.asp

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?St ... 2227-3029r

http://www.americanmuslims.information/

http://www.noterror.information/index.aspx

~dancer~

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:50 am
by _OUT OF MY MISERY
TD

Thank you for posting those sites....moderate Muslims..hopefully will start to have a louder voice and the media will allow their voices to be heard.....Watch the Glenn Beck program...

www.glennbeck.com/tv/

This link should tell you where and when he is on

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:55 am
by _Ray A
Most of the Muslims I've met in real life are nice people. And in my country most are moderate. But extremist views do exist, and are fed by some of the Muslim community. For example, why Sheik Hilaly has not yet been dumped as Australia's Muslim leader is not only baffling, but unconscionable. His latest statement is that Muslims in Australia have more right to live here than those of convict ancestry. His comments have again been condemned by some Muslim leaders, but he's still there, still the leader. No other public figure would survive a comment like that. Catholic Archbishops have been forced to resign for saying much less. There's a double standard here. When 9/11 occurred I saw some Muslim reaction - almost tears of joy, and boxer Anthony Mundine (son of former world champion boxer Tony Mundine) said "they deserved it". Mundine is an Australian-born Aboriginal who converted to Islam, has money and fame, and nothing to gripe about. Some of this is obviously racially motivated, and they may view Christianity as a religion for "nice white people who live in leafy-green suburbs" and drive Ferraris.

I've met some terrific Muslim families in the last five years, but I have to say, thank God their children are growing up as Aussies and adopting the Aussie lifestyle, and there's little chance they will want to adopt strict Muslim culture. As long as that happens, I feel safe.

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:50 pm
by _dartagnan
My experience is that there are those Muslims who do not interpret the Quran as some suggest they must (Kevin... smile).


I never said Muslims "must" do anything, but I believe you are jmping to conslusions about how Muslims you know interpret the Quran. When I pressed you on this you said they go to their Imam. Well, duh? That doesn't leave much room for their own private interpretation then now does it?

After viewing these links…. TD, you cannot possibly be serious.

None of your links provide examples of prominent Muslim figures or groups condemning Islamic terrorists by name. The largest American Muslim school in Virginia teaches kids that Osama bin Ladin is an innocent. Try to get a CAIR representative to denounce Hamas for example. The attempt has been made too many times but they always skirt the issue and start talking about American or Israeli terrorism. You got one obscure article by a Muslim talking about how she knows Muslims who condemn terror- superficial and about as meaningful as your assertions - but like you she provides no names of any Imams, and she doesn’t condemn any by name either. She doesn’t define what she considers terrorism also. The last link is some weird website with no information about who runs it, how many people support it, what they consider terrorism, etc. The photos on the website are not of American 9-11 victims but rather Muslim victims in other countries, which tells me they are more focused on calling Israel and America terrorists.

Recently one Muslim tried to form a “march against Terror” and when he tried to get CAIR involved they refused. What does it say to Americans when Muslims in the community refuse to participate in a "March Against Terror"? A grand total of 100 people showed up, most of whom were not even Muslims!! http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20050512 ... -6912r.htm . Hussein Ibish of the Progressive Muslim Union said this particular Muslim,"has gone too far in apologizing to the American public for radical Islamic terrorism."

When confronted with questions, CAIR refuses to denounce terrorists (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... sp?ID=9461). When terrorists are found and convicted, it is not surprising that CAIR deems (http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/cgi-b ... slam/CAIR/) their convictions "hate crimes." Nor is it surprising that CAIR will lie (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... p?ID=18480) about such things on Hannity and Colmes. Shortly after the attacks in Sept 2001, CAIR placed on its web site, under a picture of the World Trade Center in flames, a plea: “Donate to the NY/DC Emergency Relief Fund.” Once clicked, the link redirects to the Holy Land Foundation, an Islamic “charity” whose assets were frozen by the Government because it had given millions to Hamas. Did you get that? CAIR was trying to use the 9-11 event to further fund terror! Steven Pomerantz, the FBI's former chief of counter terrorism, says (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=32242) CAIR's "leaders and its activities effectively give aid to international terrorist groups." Even worse, CAIR has employed (http://www.danielpipes.org/article/394) at least three convicted terrorists, yet it is supposed to be a benign "civil rights" group. CAIR has established itself as the representative for American Islam, having been invited to the White House numerous times since 9-11. CAIR is the defendant in a 9-11 lawsuit (http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/394) put forward by the family of FBI agent John O'Neill, who was murdered during the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center. CAIR's parent organization, Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), was created by the number two leader of Hamas, Mousa Abu Marzook (http://www.adl.org/terror/marzuq.asp). What does it say about American Islam when the most vocal and prominent Muslim organization is a front for militant Islam?

"By Allah, the West should not be condemned for thinking that every Muslim is a terrorist, when it sees all these shameful deeds and the Muslims remain as silent as the dead." (Dr. Ahmad Al-Baghdadi, Al-Siyassa, July 20, 2005)

Try again TD.

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:12 pm
by _truth dancer
Hi Kevin....

My Muslim friend, last night in a discussion wrote this in an email to me... "there are over 1 billion Muslims on the earth and just about that many perspectives on what Islam means to them. ; ) There is no priests, no pastors, no leadership head...just God and the Qur'an."

My understanding is that in Islam, belief is between the believer and God. The Imam is the local person one goes to for help and direction. Do you disagree with this?

Do you agree that there are those who embrace Islam who do not agree with terrorism? Who believe the Quran speaks of peace? Who interpret the Quran differently that terrorist?

You seem to suggest that Islam is one united belief system with one interpretation of the Quran.... the one the terrorist embrace.

You speak of Muslim leaders not speaking out... but my understanding is Islam does not embrace a heirarchal form of leadership in any sense of the word.

I'm not arguing that there are some violent terrorist-minded Muslims in the world. I'm suggesting that there are those who embrace Islam but who do not interpret the Quran as you suggest they do. I just do not think all of the Muslim community is like you think they are.

~dancer~

And no I'm not kidding with the links I sent...:-) they are examples of believing Muslims people speaking out against violence, terrorism... and trying to bring peace to our world.

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:52 pm
by _dartagnan
I can produce citations from religious authorities. You and your friend only produce assertions from unnamed people about unnamed beliefs. Your Muslim friend provides you with links to an organization that funds terrorism, employs terrorists and is monitored closely by the FBI and has made scary public declarations such as how the USA should eventually become an Islamic state.

This is supposed to be your evidence that many Muslims reject terrorism?

I mean come on, you’re killing your own position here.

My understanding is that in Islam, belief is between the believer and God. The Imam is the local person one goes to for help and direction. Do you disagree with this?


I have already agreed with this... twice. But the imam relies on Islamic texts, Islamic jurisprudence to counsel fellow Muslims. 80% of American mosques are controlled by Saudi Arabia’s fundamentalist brand of Islam.

Do you agree that there are those who embrace Islam who do not agree with terrorism?


Of course. But they remain silent, probably because they are 1) very few or 2) scared to speak out due to repercussions from mainstream Islam. I already pointed out the example of a Mosque excommunicating a Muslim simply because he spoke out against an Islamic terrorist.

Who believe the Quran speaks of peace?


The quran does speak of peace in some contexts, but understanding of the Quran is in order for realizing that the less tolerant, aggressive passages abrogate the earlier passages that seem to speak of love and peace. This is why those educated in Islam and its religious texts have a tendency to lean towards extremism/radicalism. Incidentally, the Quran does not speak of the golden rule which exists in most religions, and in fact it teaches that God doesn’t love humanity as a whole; he only loves Muslims. Since God hates the rest of us, it is incumbent upon all Muslims to hate us as well. Do all Muslims follow this? Certainly not. Why? Well it certainly isn’t because they know the Quran well. It probably has more to do with western culture rubbing off on them as they try to make a medieval religion compatible with western values. I mean come on, is it just a coincidence that the Muslims claiming to reject this stuff are generally those living in the West?

Who interpret the Quran differently that terrorist?


Terrorists have religious authorities of the highest order backing them up. In Sunni Islam there are no pastors nor is there a Pope, but that doesn’t change the fact that Islam has an Islamic law that governs all Muslims. Just as an example, according to Islamic law apostates are to be killed. That is the judgment from jurists representing all four schools of Sunni jurisprudence. That is why apostates living in America run for their lives and are under constant threat even from American Muslims. This is why Irshad Manji, a Muslim liberal living in Canada, cannot give talks at universities without the Muslim Student Association – largest Muslim organization in N. America - lining up against the back wall to stare her down for intimidation purposes.

When I comes to debate time, those who keep insisting the Quran does not support terrorism, either flee the scene or lose royally.

You speak of Muslim leaders not speaking out... but my understanding is Islam does not embrace a heirarchal form of leadership in any sense of the word.


And…? How does that change the fact that their Imams speak out about cartoons and false rumors of discrimination, they represent the Muslim communities when they feel the need, yet when it comes to their own members “hijacking” the faith, they absolutely refuse to come out and condemn them by name? This is just excuse making for their refusal to speak out against terrorists. We know they can speak out because they often do. The problem is, what are they speaking out, about!

Just last week this article revealed some downright scary information about what goes on in Mosques: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/ ... 30,00.html

Secret video footage reveals Muslim preachers exhorting followers to prepare for jihad, to hit girls for not wearing the hijab, and to create a 'state within a state'. Many of the preachers are linked to the Wahhabi strain of Islam practised in Saudi Arabia, which funds a number of Britain's leading Islamic institutions.


And as I said before, this is the same exact brand of Islam is responsible for funding roughly 80-85% of all the mosques in North America. These Imams get their Friday sermons faxed from Rihad.

I'm suggesting that there are those who embrace Islam but who do not interpret the Quran as you suggest they do. I just do not think all of the Muslim community is like you think they are.


This has never been the issue, nor have I questioned it. You’re demonstrating that you don’t understand my point since I never said anything about how “all of the Muslim community” is like. Again, this started when I outlined the concept of the Quran by Islam in general. My description of this concept fits the vast majority of that “one billion” people. Your friend is kidding herself if she thinks there are a billion different concepts of the Quran, but I doubt that is what she is saying anyway. The Quran is understood as the cornerstone of Islamic faith by all Muslims. There is no room for maneuvering on that point.

And no I'm not kidding with the links I sent...:-) they are examples of believing Muslims people speaking out against violence, terrorism... and trying to bring peace to our world.


You provided links to an organization that is a front for Islamic terrorism, and you call it an example of “Muslims speaking out against terrorism and trying to bring peace”?
What the hell TD?

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:28 pm
by _truth dancer
Hi Kevin...
I can produce citations from religious authorities. You and your friend only produce assertions from unnamed people about unnamed beliefs.


What "religious authorities" are you talking about? There are no authorities in Islam. There are no prophets, leaders, priests, or some authority figure.

Who is going to speak out? Lets say a muslim woman wants to speak out against terrorism. What is she supposed to do? Call the local tv station? Get CNN to interview her? Write an article for the New York times? Individuals do what they can to promote peace and speak out against terrorism but it is not so easy to be heard. It is MUCH easier for a church with a leader or prophet to get an audience with the world's media!

Those Muslims I know speaking out against terrorism do what they can... but they are regular people without connections in high places.

Kevin... you write,

Your friend is kidding herself if she thinks there are a billion different concepts of the Quran, but I doubt that is what she is saying anyway. The Quran is understood as the cornerstone of Islamic faith by all Muslims. There is no room for maneuvering on that point.


This is where I disagree with you... I agree the Quran is understood as the cornerstone of Islamic faith. No question. But... how the Quran is understood and embraced is NOT as clear cut as you seem to think. This is my point.

I agree that much of the world does indeed hold to archaic harmful beliefs discussed in the Quran. But not everyone interprets it in the same way.

I do think I misunderstood your position to some degree.... you seem to agree that many American Muslims do not hold to the same beliefs as those Muslims in the East. The extent, with one exception of Muslims I know are all American.

I'm still learning here and am open to more understanding. I recently read, The End of Faith, and also Karen Armstrong's latest book, "The Spiral Staircase," so am trying to get different perspectives on this issue. I just know that the Muslims I know are peaceful, loving, amazing people, who condemn terrorism and violence of every kind.

Many LDS folks get angry when others tell them what they believe based on scripture/prophetic statements/early historical documents... apologists often say if someone wants to know about their beliefs they need to ask an LDS believer. Should we not do the same with Muslims? OTOH, my observation is that LDS people/apologists/leaders are not always forthcoming, trust worthy, or fully honest... perhaps there are those Muslims who are similar?



~dancer~

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:28 pm
by _dartagnan
What "religious authorities" are you talking about? There are no authorities in Islam. There are no prophets, leaders, priests, or some authority figure.


Of course Islam has its authorities. You said so yourself, the regular folk go to the Imams for instruction. Why in the world would they do that if they are their own authorities who can interpret the Quran for themselves? There is no central authority like the Pope is for Catholicism or the Prophet is for Mormonism, but there are recognize authorities who have the final say in public matters. In Sunni Islam there are four schools of jurisprudence which pronounce judgments and interpretations of sharia law. They are authorities. Sharia law is central to what Islam is. Ask your Muslim friends what they think about sharia and that should probably tell you everything you want to know about their loyalties.

The highest authority among Shi'ite Muslims is an Ayatollah. In Sunni Islam muftis are responsible for making fatwas - religious declarations on sharia.

Now in Catholicism people can run to the Pope to find out what true Catholicism is. In Mormonism they can go to the First Presidency. Your friend seems to think that as long as there is no central authority in Islam then any self-proclaiming Muslim can declare true Islam form himself. This might work for some on a personal level, but it doesn’t wash for Islam as a whole. Your friend falls into the tiny minority category that would, as I said before, be expunged from Muslim societies abroad. A lack of a central authority does not help those who want to say terrorism has nothing to do with “true Islam” because they are in no position to declare what true Islam is either. There are essentially two sides here. One side argues that the vast majority of Muslim authorities have a better understanding of Islam and their opinions far outweigh those few Muslims living in the west. Further, those authorities are the ones leading sermons n Friday and indoctrinating the Muslim populace. If Islam is such a private-personal religion with “no authority,” then why do Muslims go to mosques and attend sermons at all? Why is it not OK to use these sermons as some kind of barometer in ascertaining what Muslims are actually learning? That is all I am doing.

But it isn’t just the authorities since most Muslims outside the west consider western Muslims to be somewhat on the fringe: “People in America think they are going to be the vanguards of change...But for Arab Muslims in the Middle East, American Muslims continue to be viewed on the margins of the faith.”(Georgetown University professor of Islamic studies Yvonne Haddad, March 18, 2005) Again, considering American Muslims to be in a position to declare true Islam is like giving polygamous “Mormons” in Colorado city the same privilege to declare real Mormonism. Actually the Colorado city Mormons would constitute a greater percentage of the whole than would western Muslims.

Who is going to speak out? Lets say a muslim woman wants to speak out against terrorism. What is she supposed to do? Call the local tv station? Get CNN to interview her? Write an article for the New York times? Individuals do what they can to promote peace and speak out against terrorism but it is not so easy to be heard.


This is just excuse making that flies in the face of the fact that Muslims do in fact speak out. Again, it isn’t a question of whether they can, it is an issue of what they choose to speak about. We know they can. They have no problems protesting cartoons, alleged discriminations, profiling at the airports, protesting speakers they consider “Islamophobic” et cetera, without benefit of a central speaker. They go to great efforts to protest and speak out on trivial or illegitimate concerns – threatening non-Muslims in the process - but they remain silent on what they insist is the largest threat to their faith: those “hijackers” of Islam. The hypocrisy is absurd. Well, if this is true, and you’re being “hijacked”, prove it then. Do something about it and stop focusing all your attention and efforts to stigmatize critical debate on the issues at hand, because that is what they are trying to do. Islamic radicals are against free speech and even the most “moderate” voices try to make American society bow down to sharia law by outlawing any critical speech as “hate speech.” In shariah law, to speak critically of Muhammed or the Quran is punishable by death. This is the standard Muslim immigrants are used to and they want to keep it that way. But what they don’t care about is the fact that to ban critical discussion is to take a huge element out of what made western society great: free speech.

CAIR is the Jesse Jackson of the Muslim community. A con-artist that goes around threatening companies with lawsuits if they do anything that seems politically incorrect. For instance, CAIR just encouraged Muslims to write up complaints about their treatments on airlines during the haaj, mainly because it adds legitimacy to their existence. They live to complain about non-issues, bigot-bait, race-bait, support terrorism through the back door, and then expect gullible people to accept their claim that they are only interested in civil rights. They write up reports about hate-crimes, most of which are fabricated, and use it to gain the “concerns” of politicians who love to play the anti-bigot card. They are a political group of the worst kind who wants to replace the constitution with sharia law through the back door.

So you can imagine my surprise when you provided CAIR as an example of Muslims wanting peace. CAIR is a front for terrorism and always will be.

This is where I disagree with you... I agree the Quran is understood as the cornerstone of Islamic faith. No question. But... how the Quran is understood and embraced is NOT as clear cut as you seem to think. This is my point.


But your point is supported by nothing except anecdotes from what Western Muslims have said to you personally. You cannot produce citations from religious authorities who wield influence over entire Muslim populations. I can do this all day long from the highest authorities in Islam; those in Mecca and Cairo.

I agree that much of the world does indeed hold to archaic harmful beliefs discussed in the Quran. But not everyone interprets it in the same way.


If that is all you are saying then I never disagreed with it. I never said many of the things you read from my posts. Of course there are some self-proclaiming Muslims who go against the grain and have their own personalized form of Islam, but my point is that they are on the fringe and represent nothing other than their own form of religion they like to call Islam. They would be excommunicated or socially expunged if living anywhere else. Even in America they are on the fringe. And with global Islam in perspective, they are even further on the fringe. Again, to speak out against Islamic terrorists could mean excommunication from American Mosques. To say Osama bin Ladin was a terrorist cold mean expulsion from American Islamic high schools. But if any of this was said in the East their lives would be in danger. For a Muslim to put forth the effort to “March against terror” in America means embarrassment and isolation.

All of these FACTS speak loudly about what I am saying. You can always find spurious individuals to support just about anything, but the record shows they do not represent the norm, even in a western society. Your claim that the “educated” Muslims reject radicalism is undermined by the researched facts. Education in Islam, education in Arabic and Islamic texts, means one has a greater tendency to become a radical. It is primarily the ignorant who are illiterate who do not become radicals, either in thought or deed. Muslims in America become educated in sciences and field that have nothing to do with Islamic studies, and they gradually become products of their host society. Often the result is that they try to hold on to their heritage as “Islam” while trying to conform it to western sensibilities. They want it both ways, but the fact is Islam at its core is incompatible with western society because Islam and the Sunnah and sharia law cannot be divorced from one another.

Many of the Muslims we see who are “regular” people are not those who believe sharia law is the highest law in the land. But then again, many of them appear “regular” and support everything we like to think they don’t.

And FTR, I am not telling Muslims what they believe. You keep trying to turn this around like that when I have never said any such thing. I am simply saying what is the norm in Islam based on research, not what a few western Muslims who are living out of the Islamic element, tell me.

can't you see the coming war?

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:38 pm
by _Richardlionhart
Dartagnan is right, we are in a war for our culture. The Moslim religion is a disease that is infecting our country and way of life. They cannot understand our values unless you wake up and recognize the threat on your doorstep you will be praying to Meca every day. The Moslim cannot understand the West because they cannot accept the depravity of their own culture. They will kill anything that stands in their way of world domination. They are all terrorists, they just don't know it yet.

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:59 pm
by _dartagnan
To further put this relativism to rest, take Mormonism for example. There are about the same number of Mormons as there are Muslims in N. America.

Yet you don’t see

1) Mormon bishops getting deported for inciting terrorists.
2) Mormon spokespersons advocating disloyalty to America
3) Mormon leaders denouncing terror publicly and then secretly approving it
4) Mormons remaining dead silent when polygamous sects try to say they are LDS.
5) Mormon PR groups demanding special privileges given to no other religious group.

If all things are truly equal, then surely there should be some example of a Mormon bishop getting deported for terror ties. Surely there must be some examples of Mormons protesting America, burning flags, declaring their God’s law is to dominate the White House, et cetera.

If don’t we see any of this, then why not?

It is because Mormonism and Islam are fundamentally different. All religions are not equal. You can replace Mormon with Baptist above, or Hindu, or Catholic, or Baha’i, and you’ll get the same result. Islam is a 6th century religion that is designed not to change. Muslims can only conform to our way of life if they discard several incompatible Islamic elements, such as the belief that sharia law is superior to secular laws.

Just to give you an idea, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was not accepted in the Islamic world, and instead of outright rejecting it, they proposed another version. The big difference was that people were not given the freedom to choose their own religion. That is because in Islam, once you are Muslim, you are not given the right to change your mind and become Catholic or something else.

One LDS expert in Islam once said the following: http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2337#comments

I am particularly concerned about the Muslim principle that apostates from Islam should be killed. Not excommunicated. Killed. I have spoken with a few devout Muslims here in America and asked them their opinion of this — and they emphatically supported it. Basically, there is no legal or acceptable way in Islam to leave the Islamic religion. This is completely contrary to the principle of freedom of religion and it is violent. Since there is no specific legal apparatus described in the ahadith to achieve this, it also (as far as I can tell) promotes a certain degree of vigilantiism. It is true that there is a Qur’anic verse that says “la iqraha fi din” (or, “there is no compulsion in religion’) but the exegesis of this leads to the general interpretation that it only applies to people who aren’t already Muslims. In other words, once you are a Muslim you must be a Muslim for life. And because this teaching is attributed to Muhammad, many Muslims accept that it cannot be questioned or abrogated by reasoning.

The picture is complicated. I believe the vast majority of Muslims in the world today will never lift their hands in violence against others. I have Muslim friends and I think we should be friendly and respectful of Muslims. But I don’t think we should blind ourselves to extremely negative realities out there.

I was in a class a long time ago where a Palestinian Muslim classmate raised the idea that jihad was simply a peaceful comment, an inner struggle to command one’s carnal desires and obey Allah. My response was that he “had better open his eyes to reality.” After the class he expressed his anger towards me and basically told me if I said anything like that again he’d physically hit me. Some months later 9-11 happened.

Since then we (this classmate and I) have reconciled but I’ve often looked back at that as an example of how the realities in the graduate classroom do not always match the ugly realities on the ground.