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Question prompted by a FairWiki page
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:02 am
by _Bond...James Bond
http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/Penal ... _endowment
I've stopped posting my Fairwiki reviews on the board because they are getting longer (the series continues on my blog). But I have a quick question for those of you who went through the Temple pre-1990 (No Specifics so this can stay terrestrial!)
Do you remember the "penalties" from the endowment ceremony? I ask this because of the quote from the Fairwiki article below (particularly the bolded part).
Critics misrepresent this part of the temple ceremony, which is relatively easy to do since members endowed since April 1990 will have had no direct experience with the penalties mentioned. Likewise, with the passage of time many members have only a vague recollection of of the endowment ceremony before the changes were made.
Replies much appreciated.
Shades:
I tried to make this as terrestrial as possible, but if you need to take it down a notch go for it. :)
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:09 am
by _Jersey Girl
Bond...let's look at this:
Critics misrepresent this part of the temple ceremony, which is relatively easy to do since members endowed since April 1990 will have had no direct experience with the penalties mentioned. Likewise, with the passage of time many members have only a vague recollection of of the endowment ceremony before the changes were made.
How is it it possible to misrepresent the portion of the temple ceremony in question unless the critic says it is still in place?
That the ceremony was modified and newer members cannot recollect it has little or nothing to do with proving or disproving misrepresentation on the part of critics.
Who in the world authored that quote? Sounds good "on paper" means next to nothing when analyzed.
Jersey Girl
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:21 am
by _Bond...James Bond
Jersey Girl wrote:
Who in the world authored that quote? Sounds good "on paper" means next to nothing when analyzed.
Jersey Girl
The FAIR sources for the article were Michael R. Ash and W. John Walsh (isn't that the "America's Most Wanted" guy). Here are their papers.
http://www.mormonfortress.com/changet1.html
http://www.lightplanet.com/Mormons/resp ... hanges.htm
I'll read the papers and see if I find the material for that quote.
Re: Question prompted by a FairWiki page
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:40 am
by _Dr. Shades
Bond...James Bond wrote:Do you remember the "penalties" from the endowment ceremony?
Yes.
Critics misrepresent this part of the temple ceremony, which is relatively easy to do since members endowed since April 1990 will have had no direct experience with the penalties mentioned. Likewise, with the passage of time many members have only a vague recollection of of the endowment ceremony before the changes were made.
Whether a recollection is "vague" depends on the member. A more accurate wording would have been, "[W]ith the passage of time[,] many members
will have only a vague recollection. . ." Dropping the word "will" makes it seem that all members' recollections are
currently vague. I, and I'm sure many others here, are living, breathing exceptions.
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:18 am
by _Yoda
Hi Bond.
I was married in 1986, and I clearly remember the penalties. Even though they are no longer part of the ceremony, it is evident where they used to fit in, and I can still hear and visualize them in my mind when I go through a temple session and we hit that part of the ceremony.
I'm glad that they have been removed, but to think that those of us who went through that ceremony are simply going to "forget" them is rediculous.
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:35 am
by _Sethbag
I was endowed in 1988, and went through I'm guessing between 15 and 20 sessions before it was changed. I remember the penalties well.
And if someone's memory is hazy, one can just look it up on the Internet. ;)
Re: Question prompted by a FairWiki page
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:16 am
by _harmony
Bond...James Bond wrote:http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/Penalties_in_the_endowment
I've stopped posting my Fairwiki reviews on the board because they are getting longer (the series continues on my blog). But I have a quick question for those of you who went through the Temple pre-1990 (No Specifics so this can stay terrestrial!)
Do you remember the "penalties" from the endowment ceremony? I ask this because of the quote from the Fairwiki article below (particularly the bolded part).
Critics misrepresent this part of the temple ceremony, which is relatively easy to do since members endowed since April 1990 will have had no direct experience with the penalties mentioned. Likewise, with the passage of time many members have only a vague recollection of of the endowment ceremony before the changes were made.
Replies much appreciated.
Shades:
I tried to make this as terrestrial as possible, but if you need to take it down a notch go for it. :)
I went through the temple for the first time in Dec of 1971. Like Liz, every time I take a session, I hear those words in my mind, and make those motions, even though I no longer believe it carries any impact at all. It's like trying to forget the pledge of allegiance. Some things just stay with you.
Mike Ash is out to lunch, again. If he's near the top of the apologists pyramid, we're all in trouble. That's two very poor arguments of his that we've had here in the last week.
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:05 am
by _Bond...James Bond
So that's 4 Yea, 0 Nay. Thanks for the early responses. Hopefully some more will trickle in over the weekend.
As I said in my blog (fairly sarcastically) I don't know how anyone could forget making such promises. The possibility of self harm should stick out in ones memory. Here's the entry (which I should have posted earlier).
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/we ... y.php?e=89
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:02 am
by _gramps
Hi. Let me add my "yes" along with the others.
I went through first time in 1977. I went often up through 1982 or so. Maybe once in 83. And then went cold turkey and survived.
How could one forget what we were required to mimic? Impossible. It will never be vague in my mind, at least.
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:22 pm
by _harmony
gramps wrote:Hi. Let me add my "yes" along with the others.
I went through first time in 1977. I went often up through 1982 or so. Maybe once in 83. And then went cold turkey and survived.
How could one forget what we were required to mimic? Impossible. It will never be vague in my mind, at least.
I think Mike's disdain for the average member comes through loud and clear. Does he think we'd just forget? Did he think our covenants didn't matter to us? Did he think we're so old and senile (at 54!) that we could easily ignore a covenant in our past? He may know a lot about the church, but he doesn't know much about people.