Is Belief a Choice?

[_Who Knows]

Well, is it?

[_The Dude]

Well, is it?

The apologists are right, there is a choice involved. It's the choice between faith and reason, or between acting and sacrificing a large part of yourself based on faith alone -- and not sacrificing yourself, because, aside from "faith" there's essentially a shortage of good reasons to act.

I choose to reject faith. Having done that, my beliefs about Mormonism and all other faith-based systems fall right into place. There's no more choosing to believe Joseph Smith or Ron Hubbard or someone else, unless they have some damn good evidence for their claims.

Other people choose to follow the principle of faith, but only in regards to their own religious system. For all competing systems they make additional choices to reject them, based on more stringent standards and special pleading about their chosen religion's specialness, but all of this is convincing only to the particular individuals and his/her children (who are themselves in training on how to follow the principle of faith). This seems like a dangerous path to me.

[_Who Knows]

The apologists are right, there is a choice involved. It's the choice between faith and reason, or between acting and sacrificing a large part of yourself based on faith alone -- and not sacrificing yourself, because, aside from "faith" there's essentially a shortage of good reasons to act.

I choose to reject faith. Having done that, my beliefs about Mormonism and all other faith-based systems fall right into place. There's no more choosing to believe Joseph Smith or Ron Hubbard or someone else, unless they have some damn good evidence for their claims.

Other people choose to follow the principle of faith, but only in regards to their own religious system. For all competing systems they make additional choices to reject them, based on more stringent standards and special pleading about their chosen religion's specialness, but all of this is convincing only to the particular individuals and his/her children (who are themselves in training on how to follow the principle of faith). This seems like a dangerous path to me.

Hmm. Good point. I've never heard it phrased that way before.

I still have difficulty accepting it though in practice. Back when i was in high school, we had a 'hypnotist' come and perform. My psychology teacher got to pick the people who were going to be hypnotized. He said how it would only work on those who 'believed' it. He gave some demonstrations and i was amazed. I believed it. So i volunteered for it, and was chosen to be one out of 12 total to be hypnotized. However, once the time came for me to be hypnotized, nothing happened. I really tried to believe it. I even played along with it, thinking that if i kept playing along, something would happen, and i would be hypnotized. But nothing. Nada. And because of that, I was basically forced to not believe it anymore.

Did I really 'choose' not to believe it? Or was that a 'conclusion' i came to after gathering evidence, testing it, etc.? I honestly feel that no matter how much self convincing i do, I can not believe in it. That's not a choice, it's just a fact.

[_The Dude]

Hmm. Good point. I've never heard it phrased that way before.

I still have difficulty accepting it though in practice. Back when i was in high school, we had a 'hypnotist' come and perform. My psychology teacher got to pick the people who were going to be hypnotized. He said how it would only work on those who 'believed' it. He gave some demonstrations and i was amazed. I believed it. So i volunteered for it, and was chosen to be one out of 12 total to be hypnotized. However, once the time came for me to be hypnotized, nothing happened. I really tried to believe it. I even played along with it, thinking that if i kept playing along, something would happen, and i would be hypnotized. But nothing. Nada. And because of that, I was basically forced to not believe it anymore.

From your experience you cannot conclude that hypnotizm doesn't work -- just that it didn't work on you.

Isn't it possible that hypnotism just doesn't work for some people? Then, not only do you have to choose to believe it, but you also have to have the kind of mind that can be hypnotized.

Did I really 'choose' not to believe it? Or was that a 'conclusion' i came to after gathering evidence, testing it, etc.? I honestly feel that no matter how much self convincing i do, I can not believe in it. That's not a choice, it's just a fact.

I'm agreeing with the apologists that there is a choice. But the first choice, the one that separates me from them, is the one to use faith as a truth-finding tool. I think that's foolish. It's doomed to lead one into believing some falsehoods and probably into sacrificing part of one's life in the name of said falsehoods.

It may well be that some people can't use faith to get the promised results, just like you couldn't let yourself be hypnotized even though you wanted to. My father once suggested that maybe the faith-part of my spirit was broken. I don't see how he would know that, though, because I've firmly decided to not apply faith in the way his religion prescribes, nor to teach such foolishness to my children.

I think the "choice" element needs to be engaged by more critics, because it's actually one of the strongest arguments we've got: the choice to use faith or not. Surely you and I can articulate why we choose to reject faith. The question is, can they explain why the DO choose to use (mormon-specific) faith?

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

I choose not to believe. So Yes I guess it is a choice. Then again what do I know I am just alittle kitten sleeping in my hammock not a care in the world....except food shelter and love...what more is there really

[_Who Knows]

From your experience you cannot conclude that hypnotizm doesn't work -- just that it didn't work on you.

Isn't it possible that hypnotism just doesn't work for some people? Then, not only do you have to choose to believe it, but you also have to have the kind of mind that can be hypnotized.

I wasn't saying (or didn't mean to say) anything about whether hypnotism works or not, only that I don't believe it does. In fact, I CAN'T believe it does - based on my experience with it. I never 'chose' to not believe it, it simply worked out that way - i tried it, it didn't work, therefore I conclude that it doesn't work - at least for me. I don't understand where the 'choice' is here.

Maybe you could say that I'm choosing to not keep investigating hypnotism to see if maybe it actually will work, but I don't think that is saying anything about my belief in it.

Maybe I'm just missing the boat here.

[_The Dude]

I wasn't saying (or didn't mean to say) anything about whether hypnotism works or not, only that I don't believe it does. In fact, I CAN'T believe it does - based on my experience with it. I never 'chose' to not believe it, it simply worked out that way - i tried it, it didn't work, therefore I conclude that it doesn't work - at least for me. I don't understand where the 'choice' is here.

Maybe you could say that I'm choosing to not keep investigating hypnotism to see if maybe it actually will work, but I don't think that is saying anything about my belief in it.

Maybe I'm just missing the boat here.

But you CAN believe it does work, even based on your experience. What if it does work for other people. What if you weren't working with a skilled mesmerizer. These sorts of things are ways you could rationalize your bad experience with a belief (should you choose to accept it) that hypnotism works. I think you choose not to keep investigating to see if it does work. Why did you give up?

Maybe hypnotism isn't a good example -- why did you give up trying to believe in Mormonism?

(I'm not saying you shouldn't give up, just wondering what reason you would give.)

[_moksha]

There are so many beliefs out there and so many choice nuggets from each to choose from. It is up to us to get out our pick and shovel and mine our own beliefs. I suppose if one is a bit more intellectually lazy, you can settle for a set of beliefs right off the rack.

Unfortunately, there are millions of people ensconced in areas of the world where they have no choice of belief system. From the shores of Tripoli to the 38th parallel of North Korea. Too bad for them.

[_Who Knows]

But you CAN believe it does work, even based on your experience.

But I'm saying that i can't! I mean, and this may be a poor example, but i can't force myself to believe the sky is red.

What if it does work for other people. What if you weren't working with a skilled mesmerizer. These sorts of things are ways you could rationalize your bad experience with a belief (should you choose to accept it) that hypnotism works.

But i don't really care what other people think. People believe all sorts of weird things. I can only say what I myself do and don't believe, and can or can't believe.

I think you choose not to keep investigating to see if it does work. Why did you give up?

Yes, i admitted as much. I gave up because i found that i didn't believe it was real, and didn't care to spend any more time on it.

Maybe hypnotism isn't a good example -- why did you give up trying to believe in Mormonism?

I was trying to use an example aside from Mormonism on purpose. But in reality, it's pretty similar to my experience with hypnotism. I tried it, and it didn't work. And the more i found out about it, the more implausible it all seemed, and the less likely it appeared to me that it indeed would work. Thus my ability to convince myself to believe in it went down, down, down, to where I find it impossible to just 'choose' to believe it all of a sudden.

I don't know. what about my example of believing the sky is red?

[_truth dancer]

It may be a choice for some but for me I do not see it as a choice, anymore that I can choose to believe the earth is flat or the sun is made of green jello.

I suppose there are those who can believe something other than their reality but I don't seem to have this ability.

:-)

~dancer~