Where do we draw the line?

[_Runtu]

In a recent thread, why me suggested that in defending the true church of God, integrity is not necessary. He considers himself to be in a war, so he will use whatever means are necessary. I hope I'm not misinterpreting, but that was the gist of it, as I recall.

Anyway, I thought about my own life, both as an apologist and later as a disaffected apostate. I remember not being completely honest with investigators on my mission (I papered over the priesthood ban with a black investigator, in one episode I'm pretty ashamed of). The only time I was ever accused of dishonesty on these kinds of boards was when I went on FAIR to try and work out my issues. I think I was leaning towards leaving the church, but I was genuinely trying to work things out. But I started posting on RfM at the same time, and that was taken as an admission that I was, in fact, already an apostate and misrepresenting myself on FAIR. I've struggled over that, but in the end, if I was dishonest, I've since repented of it.

But since why me said that the other day, I realized that nothing less than complete integrity and honesty are required. I can't expect to discuss truth if I am not truthful. So, for me, the line is pretty clear: total honesty and integrity. bcspace said the other day that being "anti-mormon" automatically presupposes lying and sensationalizing. For me, the truth is good enough, and Mormonism does not need sensationalizing for honest people to determine its truth or lack thereof.

Just a thought.

[_Yoda]

In a recent thread, why me suggested that in defending the true church of God, integrity is not necessary. He considers himself to be in a war, so he will use whatever means are necessary. I hope I'm not misinterpreting, but that was the gist of it, as I recall.

I'm glad you brought this subject up, Runtu. You're so wise...That's probably why you're a God. LOL

Why Me's words about being in a war struck me as well. I understand the concept of being in a war against Satan, but are we REALLY in a war with EACH OTHER?

It seems to me that if we pit ourselves against each other, then Satan has already won. According to the Plan of Salvation, did we not ALL choose to be here?

And yes, TBM aplogists, before you jump down my throat on this one....I know there are people in the world who have made bad choices. But do the people who take the time to converse on a religion message board really fall into the category of someone you are at war with?

We're not talking about rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc. The people I have had the opportunity to talk with both here and at FAIR/MAD collectively abhor these things. A large number of us are parents and grandparents.

I would hedge a bet that most of us, if talking to one another in an individual setting, would have more core moral values that are in common than not.

Can we disagree and discuss issues. Of course! That's what makes these boards interesting. But are we at war? I think not.

And I agree with a statement Harmony made on another thread. Because of some of these types of attitudes and venomous feelings which are displayed, I would guess that Church leadership would be none too happy about participants on either side of the aisle in this type of debtate, if we were all being honest.

[_moksha]

Even if Why Me feels embattled, I suspect he will adhere to his subjective truths and not say or do anything unethical.

[_Sethbag]

The sad thing about all this war crap is that Satan is a mythological figure, a figment of our imaginations, and yet we people are real. In the process of "battling" against a figment of our imaginations, we're actually doing harm to real live, breathing, thinking, feeling, human beings. How sad, and how pathetic.

[_Mercury]

We're not talking about rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc.

The act of thinking for oneself outside the prescribed behavior of the "one true church" is a sin.

In the mopologists eyes doubt is an abomination.

Doubt to them is a sin next to murder. And they will do anything to see malice and hate visited upon those who dare question their farcical beliefs.

[_truth dancer]

In all honesty, I think this attitude of us against Satan is one of the most destructive of all ideas humankind has every held.

So long as groups of people think they are the chosen and elect of God (not just LDS people), and everyone else is following Satan, or destroying god's church, or thwarting God's efforts, or lying, or just plain evil, the world will not find peace.

Seems to me that in order to solve the crisis our world is in, we all need to let go of this nonsense and start trying to figure out how to come together.

If we could just realize that we, as a human family are all doing the best we can, and collectively work toward understanding and healing, we may have a chance.

But, so long as humans hold to the idea that they are God's chosen and the enemy (all those who believe differently, or incorrectly, or whatever), must be destroyed I think we will not have the strength or creativity or inspiration to overcome our current challenges.

Just how I see it.... :-)


~dancer~

[_why me]

I thought I clarified my statement on the other thread. I said: 'I have no intergity except in my good name'. I believe that I said something to that effect. Its meaning: My name is my intergrity and I will be judged accordingly. Hence, I have integrity as long as my name carries that title of integrity. See my point?

Now about the war. Well I do not feel embattled but I do feel that it is a war. I have seen the hatred on critic boards and the mockery and the speculation as proof to cast doubt in LDS minds. And when one attempts to cast doubt, not by proof but by disguised hypotheticals or by speculation as proofs, well...that is not showing signs of integrity. And when one uses presentism for analysis to cast doubt on 19th century intent, well, I think that is just a little dishonest also.

Hence the war to expose the dishonesty and hopefully my name does it with integrity.

[_why me]

In all honesty, I think this attitude of us against Satan is one of the most destructive of all ideas humankind has every held.

So long as groups of people think they are the chosen and elect of God (not just LDS people), and everyone else is following Satan, or destroying god's church, or thwarting God's efforts, or lying, or just plain evil, the world will not find peace.

Seems to me that in order to solve the crisis our world is in, we all need to let go of this nonsense and start trying to figure out how to come together.

Just how I see it.... :-)

~dancer~

The LDS will find some aspects of cyber peace when critics stop mocking, bashing, sneering, cussing and spitting on things that the LDS hold sacred. As for myself, I like critics as people but they seem to show too much vile on some critic boards. And so, the critics need to make peace and the LDS need to make peace....and this could happen when the mocking and bashing stops and the critics begin to respect the people and the faith that many still choose to live in. And when the LDS respect the choice the critic has made to leave the church. (Most do but there are exceptions.)

[_why me]

We're not talking about rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc.

The act of thinking for oneself outside the prescribed behavior of the "one true church" is a sin.

In the mopologists eyes doubt is an abomination.

Doubt to them is a sin next to murder. And they will do anything to see malice and hate visited upon those who dare question their farcical beliefs.

Not exactly. The LDS I know come across doubt and yet, view it as natural in these relativist times. I see no condemnation with those who doubt. Just a life process. And many LDS see truth in other religions and appreciate such truths that can be gleamed.

Your generalizations are not very positive toward the LDS, but there is no law against such generalization, if they make you feel better.

[_why me]

Even if Why Me feels embattled, I suspect he will adhere to his subjective truths and not say or do anything unethical.

I do not feel embattled and yes, hopefully I do what I do with a good and positive sense of LDS/humanist ethics behind me. :=)