I hate lazy research!

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_Bryan Inks
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I hate lazy research!

Post by _Bryan Inks »

On another forum I participate in, the question about the Blacks/Indian skin-color curse arose.

Someone is arguing that denying blacks the priesthood isn't bigotry because everyone else was doing it.

Someone else is quoting directly from blacklds.org as proof.

A direct quote from one participant:

See? Even the "Nigger-Prophet" was given the priesthood.


The reference to the "Nigger-Prophet", for those of you who don't recognize it, is about William McCary.

I just don't get it. Why would anyone take the time and effort to do lazy research? If you were taking the time to research a topic, wouldn't you want to . . . you know. . . research it?
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

First of all, blacklds.org is just a big testimony site hosted by none other than her royal highness miss Juliann. She's not ever going to face the truth on this issue, and I think it's just too painful for most others, black and white to do so as well.

This is a huge open sore on the face of the church, and most people are not going to probe that wound, they're just going to take what they've been told as truth, and go only to the sources that they're told are "faith promoting and truthful". Heaven forbid they should head to a church bookstore and stumble upon something really nasty like I did.

Not "everybody" within Christianity was "doing it" at the time that Joseph Smith decided that he wanted to go with the Cain doctrine. One group I can think of who were not teaching that blacks were inferior were Shakers, and I believe the Quakers were of the same belief as well.

Inks, with regards to McCary, this is the first I've heard of him. I had no idea there was a man "of color" who was setting up a rival Mormon faction in the 1840s. What other information do you have?
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_cksalmon
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Post by _cksalmon »

GIMR or Inks--

Can you succinctly explain the basic issues in play here?

I'm trying to follow.

Best.

CKS
_Bryan Inks
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Post by _Bryan Inks »

GIMR wrote:First of all, blacklds.org is just a big testimony site hosted by none other than her royal highness miss Juliann. She's not ever going to face the truth on this issue, and I think it's just too painful for most others, black and white to do so as well.

This is a huge open sore on the face of the church, and most people are not going to probe that wound, they're just going to take what they've been told as truth, and go only to the sources that they're told are "faith promoting and truthful". Heaven forbid they should head to a church bookstore and stumble upon something really nasty like I did.

Not "everybody" within Christianity was "doing it" at the time that Joseph Smith decided that he wanted to go with the Cain doctrine. One group I can think of who were not teaching that blacks were inferior were Shakers, and I believe the Quakers were of the same belief as well.

Inks, with regards to McCary, this is the first I've heard of him. I had no idea there was a man "of color" who was setting up a rival Mormon faction in the 1840s. What other information do you have?


Refuge, I know and agree with you.

In regards to William McClary, I found information on an LDS site, actually. I'll repost here.

Brigham Young's decision to deny blacks the priesthood was undoubtedly prompted by several factors. Among the most important may well have been the controversy generated in 1846-47 by the flamboyant activities of William McCary, a half-breed Indian-black man referred to variously as the "Indian," "Lamanite," or "Nigger Prophet."35 The descriptions of McCary are vague and often conflicting, making it difficult to determine his exact activities and relationship to the Latter-day Saint movement. McCary's origin and occupation are not known. The earliest known account, written in October 1846, claims that Apostle Orson Hyde while at a camp near Council Bluffs, Iowa, "baptised and ordained ... a Lamanite Prophet to use as a tool to destroy the churches he cannot rule."36

[p.135]By late October 1846, McCary shifted his base of operation east to Cincinnati. The Cincinnati Commercial described the exploits of "a big, burley, half Indian, half Negro, formerly a Mormon" who built up a religious following of some sixty members "solemnly enjoined to secrecy" concerning their rites due to their apparent practice of plural marriage.37 McCary "proclaimed himself Jesus Christ" showing his disciples "the scars of wounds in his hands and limbs received on the cross"; and performed "miracles with a golden rod."38 The blessing that he conferred upon his followers reflected at least some knowledge of Latter-day Saint ritual. "Accept this blessing in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ, Mary, the mother, God our Father, our Lord. AMEN. It will preserve yours, yourself, your dead, your family through this life into [the] celestial kingdom, your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, AMEN."39

It is not clear whether McCary had any contact with Elijah Abel or any of the other Cincinnati Saints upholding the leadership claims of Brigham Young and the Twelve. Whatever the case, McCary's Cincinnati-based movement was short-lived. By mid-November his following had dwindled to thirty, and by February 1847, McCary himself had left Cincinnati.40

McCary returned west to Winter Quarters, Nebraska, joining the main body of Saints under the leadership of Brigham Young in their temporary encampment. Young and others initially welcomed McCary into the Mormon camp where he was recognized as an accomplished musician, entertaining the encamped Saints during the months of February and March 1847.41 The Saints might have had other uses in mind for McCary. In a somewhat ambiguous statement, John D. Lee, a follower of Young, said that the black Indian "seems to be willing to go according to counsel and that he may be a useful man after he has acquired an experimental knowledge," and he advised his fellow Saints to "use this man with respect."42 By late March 1847, however, McCary had fallen from Mormon favor. What he did to offend Brigham Young is not clear but at a "meeting of the twelve and others" summoned to consider this matter "McCary made a rambling statement, claiming to be Adam, the ancient of days, and exhibiting himself in Indian costume; he also claimed to have an odd rib which he had discovered in his wife. He played on his thirty-six cent flute, being a natural musician and gave several illustrations of his ability as a mimic."43 Following this March 1847 meeting, Church leaders expelled McCary from the Mormon camp at Winter Quarters. Subsequently, Apostle Orson Hyde preached a sermon "against his doctrine."44

This was not the end of McCary's Mormon involvement, although his subsequent activities are even more difficult to trace.45 It appears, however, that McCary remained active in the area around Winter [p.136]Quarters and proceeded to set up his own rival Mormon group drawing followers away from Brigham Young.46 According to a July 1847 account, the "negro prophet" exerted his influence by working "with a rod, like those of old."47 By the fall of 1847, McCary was teaching and practicing racial miscegenation in which McCary had a number of women "seald to him in his way which was as follows, he had a house in which this ordinance was preformed his wife ... was in the room at the time of the proformance no others was admired the form of sealing was for the women to go to bed with him in the daytime as I an informed 3 diforant times by which they was scald to the fullest extent." MeCary's activities and this "Sealing Ordinance" caused a negative reaction among those Latter-day Saints in the surrounding community not involved with his sect, particularly the relatives of McCary's female disciples. One irate Mormon wanted "to shoot" McCary for trying "to kiss his girls." But McCary, sensing the impending storm, "made his way to Missouri on a fast trot."48

While the whirlwind generated by McCary's activities upset Brigham Young and other church leaders, the decision to deny blacks the priesthood was probably prompted as much, if not more, by the exposure of the Latter-day Saints to a large number of blacks-both slave and free-following the Mormon migration to the Great Basin. This region's black population of 100 to 120 individuals, who arrived during the years 1847-49, stood in sharp contrast to the twenty or so blacks that had lived in Nauvoo during the Mormon sojourn there.49 The sudden appearance of these Great Basin blacks-a significant proportion of whom were slaves-helped to encourage Brigham Young and other church leaders to clearly define both their secular and ecclesiastical status and that of black people generally. In response, Latter-day Saint leaders not only prohibited blacks from holding the priesthood but also adopted through the Utah territorial legislature a set of antiblack laws that limited the rights and activities of free blacks and gave legal recognition to the institution of black slavery in the territory. 50

Attached Footnotes:

35. McCary's name was spelled a number of different ways: "McGarry," "McCairey," "McCarry," McCarey" as well as "McCary." In one source he was referred to as "Walmart. Chubby," Juanita Brooks ed., On the Mormon Frontier: The Diary of Hosea Stout 1844-1861, 2 vols. (Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press, 1966), entry for 8 Mar. 1848, 1:304. In The True Latter Day Saints Herald (Cincinnati, Ohio), March 1861, he was referred to as "Mr. Williams the imposter." For uniformity and simplicity of spelling I will refer to him as William McCary.

36. Voree Herald, Oct. 1846. According to the True Latter Saints Herald, March 1861, the agreement between Hyde and McCary was made in Nauvoo, Illinois, where Hyde "married" McCary "to a white sister."

38. Ibid. As indicated by a warning in the Commercial cautioning the citizens of this city to "Lookout for more sensuality in open daylight, in your families, and almost before your eyes, all under the cloak of sanctity."

39. Ibid, 17 Nov. 1846.

40. Zion's Revelle (Voree, Wisc.), 25 Feb. 1847. Despite the short-lived nature of McCary's Cincinnati activities they were noted by newspapers as far away as Illinois and Missouri. See Nauvoo New Citizen, 23 Dec. 1846 and The Gazette (St. Joseph, Missouri), 11 Dec. 1846.

41. Brooks, ed., On the Mormon Frontier, 2:244; John D. Lee, Journal, 27 Feb. 1847, LDS Church Archives.

42. Lee, Journal, 27 Feb. 1847. Young possibly had one or more of the following uses for McCary's talents: (1) to dupe or mislead his Mormon rivals, (2) to be an interpreter among the Indians as the Saints traveled west, (3) to entertain the Saints on their westward trek with his talents as a mimic and ventriloquist.

43. Manuscript History of the Church, 26 March 1847. According to other accounts this "coolored man [sic] ... showed his body to the company to see if he had a rib gone" and demonstrated his talents as a ventriloquist by passing himself off as the ancient Apostle Thomas-throwing his voice and claiming that "God spoke unto him and called him Thomas." See Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 26 Mar. 1847, LDS Church Historical Department; The True Latter Day Saints Herald, March 1861. A brief mention of the confrontation between McCary and church leaders is also contained in Willard Richards, Journal, 26 Mar. 1847, LDS Church Archives.

44. Lorenzo Brown, Journal, 27 Apr. 1847, LDS Church archives; Lee, Journal, 25 Apr. 1847.

45. According to one account, McCary joined the dissident Mormon apostle Lyman Wight, then on his way to Texas. See Lee, Journal, 7 May 1847 and the Latter-day Saints Millennial Star (vol. 11) (1 Jan. 1849), p. 14, which notes the interaction between Wight and the "Pagan Prophet." Other accounts, however, suggest that McCary joined Charles B. Thompson, the leader of a minor Mormon schismatic sect based initially in Missouri and later in Iowa. In this regard see my "Forgotten Mormon Perspectives: Slavery, Race, and the Black Man as Issues Among Non-Utah Latter-day Saints, 1844-75," Michigan History, 61 (Winter 1977): 357-70. Finally, it has been suggested that McCary traveled "South to his own tribe." See Lorenzo Brown, Journal, 27 April 1847.

46. Ibid., Nelson W. Whipple, Journal, 14 Oct. 1847, LDS Church Archives; Brooks, On the Mormon Frontier, 1:244, fn 37, and 1:304, (25 Apr. 1847).

47. Zion's Revelle, 29 July 1847.

48. Whipple, Journal, 14 Oct. 1847.

49. These are my own compilations as derived from a number of sources including: Carter, Negro Pioneer; Wolfinger, "Test of Faith,"and Jack Beller, "Negro Slaves in Utah," Utah Historical Quarterly, 2 (1929): 123-26. It is worth noting that the total number of blacks within Utah as compiled from these sources is considerably greater than the official U. S. Bureau of the Census, totals of 24 black slaves and 26 free blacks, 25 reputed for 1850, The Seventh Census of the United States: 1850 (Washington, D.C., pub. 1853), p. 993.

50. For two discussions of the forces leading to the enactment of these measures see Lester E. Bush, Jr., "Mormonism's Negro Doctrine," pp. 22-29 and Dennis L. Lythgoe, "Negro Slavery in Utah," Utah Historical Quarterly 39 (1971): 40-54.


Source: http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/ne ... ither4.htm

I haven't had time to do more research into this man, but he definitely seems a character.
_Bryan Inks
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Post by _Bryan Inks »

cksalmon wrote:GIMR or Inks--

Can you succinctly explain the basic issues in play here?

I'm trying to follow.

Best.

CKS


Basically, this was my rant about people who are lazy. The gist of my complaint comes from one particular poster (not on this board) who ran a quick google search for "Black LDS" and came up with blacklds.org and stated that since Elijah Abel and half-dozen more black men (most related to Abel) had the priesthood, "Obviously there was never a ban on priesthood and priesthood ordinances in regards to the black community and anyone that claims otherwise is a liar."

Add to that the fact that "You can't judge the organization by the quotes of the people running it." argument . . . and I have one big headache.

This despite the 5 pages of discussion, quotes, and research that had been posted prior to this person joining the discussion.

I can't really vent about it there so I brought it here.

XD
_Brackite
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Post by _Brackite »

GIMR wrote:First of all, blacklds.org is just a big testimony site hosted by none other than her royal highness miss Juliann. She's not ever going to face the truth on this issue, and I think it's just too painful for most others, black and white to do so as well.

This is a huge open sore on the face of the church, and most people are not going to probe that wound, they're just going to take what they've been told as truth, and go only to the sources that they're told are "faith promoting and truthful". Heaven forbid they should head to a church bookstore and stumble upon something really nasty like I did.

Not "everybody" within Christianity was "doing it" at the time that Joseph Smith decided that he wanted to go with the Cain doctrine. One group I can think of who were not teaching that blacks were inferior were Shakers, and I believe the Quakers were of the same belief as well.

Inks, with regards to McCary, this is the first I've heard of him. I had no idea there was a man "of color" who was setting up a rival Mormon faction in the 1840s. What other information do you have?


Hi GIMR and all else here,

An important point that I think and believe that should be made here is that the Reorganized LDS Church ( Now Called The Community of Christ) did Not have a Priesthood ban from ordaining men of African ancestry to the Priesthood, like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Church (THE Utah Base LDS Church) did. The Reorganized LDS Church ( Now Called The Community of Christ) has been ordaining men of African ancestry to the Priesthood since about 1866. Please Check OUt And See: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/reo ... church.htm And: http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispages ... =392.topic

It is true that Joseph Smith decided to go along with the Cain doctrine (bsically meaning that he believed that all Africans were descendants of Cain), however, the Priesthood ban came from Brigham Young.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

I hate lazy research!


So do I. All antiLDS critics are guilty of it without exception.

Someone is arguing that denying blacks the priesthood isn't bigotry because everyone else was doing it.


And some LDS are occaisionally guilty of it too. It certainly isn't bigotry, but it certainly wasn't because everyone else was doing it, it's because denying blacks the priesthood doesn't fit the definition of bigotry.
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

bcspace wrote:
I hate lazy research!


So do I. All antiLDS critics are guilty of it without exception.


What evidence can you provide for this claim?

It certainly isn't bigotry, but it certainly wasn't because everyone else was doing it, it's because denying blacks the priesthood doesn't fit the definition of bigotry.


Why not?
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

So do I. All antiLDS critics are guilty of it without exception.

What evidence can you provide for this claim?


Any debate involving an antiLDS critic. Yours is a good example......

It certainly isn't bigotry, but it certainly wasn't because everyone else was doing it, it's because denying blacks the priesthood doesn't fit the definition of bigotry.

Why not?


Because withholding the priesthood from blacks is not "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own."
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

bcspace wrote:
So do I. All antiLDS critics are guilty of it without exception.

What evidence can you provide for this claim?


Any debate involving an antiLDS critic.


Ah, so mere assertion then, no actual evidence.

Yours is a good example......


Great, walk me through it please

Because withholding the priesthood from blacks is not "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own."


I'm amazed you can say that with a straight face.

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