Of all the flood stories of the Ancient Near East, the Biblical flood account is superior because it is scientifically credible and plausible, whereas the others are not:
I would like to discuss the idea that the Noah global flood story is scientifically credible, plausible, or factual.
I'm not interested (for this thread anyway), which ancient flood story is superior, just if the Noachian flood story is possible based on scientific knowledge.
I do not think there is any remote possibility that there was a global food a few thousand years ago. in my opinion, there is not only NO evidence for such an event but there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that this is NOT the case.
If someone wants to go with the idea that there was indeed a flood, I would think they would hold to that belief based on faith not scientific understanding. I suppose one could go with the idea that Satan has provided evidence to trick us, or science has yet to discover something that would change the way we measure time, or something like this but I don't see how one can use science to prove (even the possibility) there was a global flood story a couple of millennia ago.
So, what are you thoughts?
:-)
~dancer~
Last edited by Bing [Bot] on Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
I don't doubt that there was some kind of widespread flood at some point in antiquity. I do believe (can't recall all the places that I have come across it) that it is there in the biblical accounts, in the Epic of Gilgamesh and in Hindu mythology. Something happened.
As to whether it got as far as covering ALL land areas. I think not, that is patently so, and I wouldn't mind betting on a 100% probability. Otherwise we would have the biblical authors putting Koala Bears, Kangaroos, and Hedgehogs onto the ark. The fact they do not is telling.
I think that what it does show is that people tried to make sense of great natural tragedies, then they tried to put it in a religious context...., now we understand the science behind it. Still this earth is a scary place to live sometimes. Can you blame them!
Go to Greenland and Antarctica to the ice fields where the scientists can drill down and take ice core samples and count the annual layers of ice. These layers can date the ice field just like tree rings can tell you the age of the tree. Scientists have so far counted down at least 800,000 annual layers of ice counting backwards from the present time, in Greenland. It's impossible that these ice fields could have survived unmolested through a global flood of the type taught by the LDS church in its lesson manuals, as a literal interpretation of the Flood story from Genesis. This is in fact evidence that the Flood didn't happen, not just a lack of evidence of a Flood.
Add to that the fact that there are peoples in this world, like the Australian aborigines, who existed separately from all other human populations for tens of thousands of years until the Europeans rediscovered them 400ish years ago, and that also is proof that the Flood didn't happen, because this population of humans existed, unbroken, through a time period which goes back in time far further than the Biblical time frame of the Flood.
In general, population scientists can point to whole civilizations and peoples stretching further back in time by many thousands of years past the timeframe of the Biblical Flood story.
Add to that that such a Flood would leave mountains and mountains of evidence in the ground, with sediment layers and the destruction and covering up of other areas that would be easily recognizable to geologists. Such a flood could not have covered the entire earth to a depth required to exceed the tops of the mountains, without leaving a geological footprint. Hell, geologists can usually go into any given area and tell you all kinds of things about the geological past of that area going back hundreds of thousands and even millions of years. Certainly they would be able to recognize evidence of a global, catastrophic flood that covered the entire earth a mere 5000 years ago.
For these, and many, many other reasons, the Biblical account of the Flood is totally, utterly, and even completely impossible. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a bonafide ignoramus.
Actually, there is one tiny chance it happened, but that relies on the notion that the Flood really happened, but then God caused all the evidence of it to disappear, created ice fields in Greenland and Antarctica with hundreds of thousands of annual layers to fool us, created whole races of people like the Aborigines from scratch and made it look like they'd been there for tens of thousands of years, created evidence, from scratch, of all the civilizations on earth that can be traced back past the Biblical timelines, and in short revamped the entire face of the earth in a miraculous fashion to hide the evidence of the Flood from all of us adulterous sign-seekers, and try our faith. I suppose you can choose to go that route, but if you do, don't try to use this argument in any kind of scientific discussion. ;-)
Miss Taken wrote:I don't doubt that there was some kind of widespread flood at some point in antiquity. I do believe (can't recall all the places that I have come across it) that it is there in the biblical accounts, in the Epic of Gilgamesh and in Hindu mythology. Something happened.
One thing to take into consideration is that most human populations have developed, over time, by bodies of water. Bodies of water sometimes flood. If you're not familiar with terms like "hundred year flood" and "thousand year flood", they refer to the worst flooding one could expect across time periods of a hundred or a thousand years. How many "thousand year floods" would you expect a region to experience in 10,000 or 15,000 years? Middle Eastern civilization goes back that far, at least the people do who eventually created the civilizations, and it's no surprise in the least that their mythology would bear some record of some of the catastrophic floods they had experienced over thousands of years of their history.
That goes for every civilization or population in the world. They've got many thousands of years of their own history involved somehow in their mythology, and growing up around bodies of water for thousands of years, have undoubtedly experienced some severe flooding from time to time. It's no wonder if every single civilization on Earth has some kind of flood story tied into their mythology. The widespread existence of flood mythology has, however, no evidentiary value whatsoever regarding the truthfulness of the Noachian Flood, despite what a lot of the Flood enthusiasts would have you believe.
Thanks Sethbag, that perspective makes a lot of sense.
Mary
Edited to add that I remember watching some discovery channel program about the end of the last ice age that opened up a previously contained sea?
Also in support of your points, it's worthwhile remembering that France and the UK were once joined, so we know there has been significant changes in both the land levels, and sea levels. (only about 25 miles between us and the French in some parts) This is an ongoing natural occurance. Change sometimes quick and sometimes slow, but change nevertheless.
Apologies for writing in generalisations. If anyone is particularly interested I can always bring up some reasonably reputable web-sites to support my points.
Some of the most catastrophic floods at any point in history took place before Adams' children was around to witness them. The breaking of the ice dam that dammed Lake Missoula resulted in a tremendous flood that would have been incredible to witness. Too bad it took place about 6000 years before Adam. And it wasn't global, since the water covered only a bit of what is now North America. But as local floods go, I bet it was spectacular.
We have an enormous amount of geological evidence proving a global flood did not happen a few thousand years ago.
We have cities (Jericho, Catal Hyuk, for examples)still in existence that go back over 7,000 years ago.
We have DNA evidence showing the patterns of migration over the globe.
We have incredible anthropological evidence (Think of Guns, Germs, and Steel).
We have archaeological evidence galore.
We have linguistic evidence and can now show how language developed over the past ten thousand years or so.
In short, we have a VERY consistent story of our world history. We can clearly see how our world that has evolved, grown, and developed.
While the myths and stories of ancient peoples provided them with some sort of structure or answers to their questions, today we KNOW the story and no longer have to hold onto the archaic myths.
Any believers willing to share their thoughts?
:-)
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
truth dancer wrote:I do not think there is any remote possibility that there was a global food a few thousand years ago. in my opinion, there is not only NO evidence for such an event but there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that this is NOT the case.
I agree. There is, however, plenty of evidence for a Mesopotamian mega-flood around 2,900 BC, which is the timeframe of the Biblical flood. There is no need to read the Biblical flood account as global. Some early Jewish commentaries (such as Josephus), believed it was local in scope, not global.