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I don't know if anyone else has been following this, but there is a lengthy thread over on the fittingly named MADboard which I have found fascinating. What has been so interesting about it, in my opinion, is the lengths to which the apologists are going in order to discredit her story. (Don Bradley has been doing a stand-up job of sticking to the facts, something which has proven highly problematic to the TBM posters over there.) So far, the TBMs have tried to discredit the story by: pointing out the involvement of Bennett; comparing her to Martha Beck; comparing her to the incident at Roswell; claiming that her memory is shoddy; saying (most bizarrely, but then again this is coming from Wade) that simply because there are six LDS witness against her, the sheer number proves she is wrong; saying that she is under the sway of the adversary (yes, Hammer was a participant in this thread); saying that objectively evaluating historical data is impossible, since everyone is biased. Anyways, I highly recommend the thread! My favorite post comes from one of my favorite guys, Wade Englund:

wenglund wrote:Do you understand the difference between the leaders suggesting that things be kept private (I will take your word about this being a "pattern"), and their allegedly suggesting that those not involved in the practice (Mary and John) blattantly lie in discrediting the published statements of their own family member?

I can see why the Church leaders in question may, themselves, have on ocassion played semantics in order to keep the practice of polygamy private.

(emphasis added)

Lol!!!

An unfortunate own goal from Weng.

This thread just closed. The wrap of the thread was that as follows:

DonBradley got a three day suspension:

Have a nice three day suspension and come back. --Chaos

Hammer got a suspension, a posting limit, and his last warning:

Hammer you are on the top ten list of problem posters. You will be taking another break from the board. You are suspended and it has to be your second or third time. You will be coming back at no more than ten posts per day and next time you will be banned. --Chaos

Bond...James Bond wrote:This thread just closed. The wrap of the thread was that as follows:

DonBradley got a three day suspension:

Have a nice three day suspension and come back. --Chaos

Hammer got a suspension, a posting limit, and his last warning:

Hammer you are on the top ten list of problem posters. You will be taking another break from the board. You are suspended and it has to be your second or third time. You will be coming back at no more than ten posts per day and next time you will be banned. --Chaos

Threads of this nature will continue to be problematic for MAD until they realize that it's possible to have a decent conversation about Joseph's implementation of polygamy without all the angst that the TBM's bring to the table. If they keep going, pretty soon they'll be down to only a handful of posters and it will look like a deserted ZLMB.

The nature of healthy discussion includes the uncomfortable. I understand the trauma that can happen to a testimony that is unprepared to read about Joseph's manipulations, his lies, his deceit, his secrecy with those who agreed to his demands and his public whispering campaign against those women who rejected him. His ego was as fragile as an eggshell, and he didn't deal with rejection well when it was on a personal level. This phenomena got worse as he got older, and if a TBM is so fragile that they are unable to deal with this sort of information coming out, then the result is wholesale suspensions and banning posters in order to keep it all under wraps.

If Don is smart, he'll dust MAD off his shoes, turn his back, and walk away.

Maybe we'll be lucky, and Hammer will show up here. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

This just in from Madame Fancher (she reports to me when Scratch is sleeping :)

DonBradley wrote:I've found much of the recent discussion stimulating and productive. But I've also found much of it noxious and laborious. I'm going to take a break from the MAD boards for a while.

I'd absolutely love to see Hammer here. He'd really bloom under the minimum moderation policy.

Hammer:
It sounds like historians of this ilk only want to publish items that would only be found, if found at all, in the rag magazines sold at the end of check out stands.

I don't know that historians of this ilk would have any credence with the intelligent kind of people.

Ok, so now he's been suspended, but with comments like this, and other obnoxious crap in that thread, if he didn't so often bear his testimony of the church, he'd have been outright banned ages ago. It's unbelievable the crap he's gotten away with. So the mods have announced he's on thin ice. Well, for a TBM, that's really saying a lot. He's gotten away with murder on that board so far, with a couple of suspensions.

And meanwhile, I've read a lot of what Don posted in that thread, and he was not making person attacks. He was fending off some attacking TBMs with civil and polite discussion of his historical methodology and standards and whatnot. Unbelievable that he was suspended for "personal attacks". Unbefreakinglievable. How does anything at all that Don wrote in that thread come within even a mile of the crap that Hammer spewed nonstop throughout the thread. Don was contributing with facts, logical arguments, etc. and all Hammer did was snipe at him with moronic attacks and snipes.

Sethbag wrote:

Hammer:
It sounds like historians of this ilk only want to publish items that would only be found, if found at all, in the rag magazines sold at the end of check out stands.

I don't know that historians of this ilk would have any credence with the intelligent kind of people.

Ok, so now he's been suspended, but with comments like this, and other obnoxious crap in that thread, if he didn't so often bear his testimony of the church, he'd have been outright banned ages ago. It's unbelievable the crap he's gotten away with. So the mods have announced he's on thin ice. Well, for a TBM, that's really saying a lot. He's gotten away with murder on that board so far, with a couple of suspensions.

Preach it.

I didn't find out about Joseph Smith's polyandrous wives untill early last year.(under realistic research terms) When i had been out for 2 1/2 years. And like most the rest of you i was a regular in all standard classes and seminary graduate. In fact, i had asked one of my doctrine teachers once about the polygamous wives of brig young and had been thoroughly discouraged from asking such questions. Or even outright told that it wasent a big enough deal to worry about or to continue questioning. I figured it was just one of those things i would be told when they thought i was ready. Now i realise they where just trying to hide it or cover it up.

Sethbag wrote:

Hammer:
It sounds like historians of this ilk only want to publish items that would only be found, if found at all, in the rag magazines sold at the end of check out stands.

I don't know that historians of this ilk would have any credence with the intelligent kind of people.

Ok, so now he's been suspended, but with comments like this, and other obnoxious crap in that thread, if he didn't so often bear his testimony of the church, he'd have been outright banned ages ago. It's unbelievable the crap he's gotten away with. So the mods have announced he's on thin ice. Well, for a TBM, that's really saying a lot. He's gotten away with murder on that board so far, with a couple of suspensions.

And meanwhile, I've read a lot of what Don posted in that thread, and he was not making person attacks. He was fending off some attacking TBMs with civil and polite discussion of his historical methodology and standards and whatnot. Unbelievable that he was suspended for "personal attacks". Unbefreakinglievable. How does anything at all that Don wrote in that thread come within even a mile of the crap that Hammer spewed nonstop throughout the thread. Don was contributing with facts, logical arguments, etc. and all Hammer did was snipe at him with moronic attacks and snipes.

What is so peculiar (in my opinion) about the MADmods' toleration of Hammer is the fact that, based on a number of accounts, Hammer is actually a sockpuppet!!. Hammer has been totally banned at least twice before, and yet juliann, Dan_G & Co. allow him (actually, I believe it is a *her*) back in again and again. They have said before that they want to cultivate "a certain atmosphere," which apparently means a rabid, vicious, totally Neanderthal atmosphere is which fundamentalist TBMs are given free reign.

I am pleased that the Brotherton discussion at MA&D was of sufficient interest to warrant commentary here. I certainly found it to be enlightening as well as enjoyable. And, while I was somewhat disappointed when Don decided to bow out of the discussion (I hope Kevin G. and Scratch don't read anything sinister or pusillanimous into what he did), I do accept his rationale for doing so, and I look forward to reading his paper if/when it is published.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-