Mormonism Manufactures Consequences for Sin

[_KimberlyAnn]

In my view, many consequences for perceived sin in the Mormon church are not necessarily natural consequences, but manufactured consequences. Consequences created by a dangerous cultish religion and designed to keep the flock in line.

For example: premarital sex. Most people have sex before they’re married. Most of them do not have children out of wedlock or STD’s. There are multitudes of people who have safe premarital sex which does not result in any negative natural consequences, or at least none as damaging as the consequences manufactured by Mormonism. Also, masturbation. Who is naturally damaged by that and what are the negative natural consequences? I can’t think of any for either situation except the consequences manufactured for Mormons by their controlling religion and the guilt they manufacture themselves because of the indoctrination provided by numerous, dangerous lessons given to them in Mormon youth programs.

A non-Mormon girl who has safe sex her first year of college with her steady boyfriend, whom she loves, has practically no negative consequences for her behavior and in fact, may have positive benefits from the experience. A Mormon girl making the same choice of safe sex with her steady boyfriend, even once, has a multitude of negative consequences all brought upon her by the Mormon church alone, all of which are created to instill guilt and shame and exert control over every aspect of her life. She will feel a tremendous sense of guilt and shame, all caused by her Mormon conditioning and the Licked Cupcake, crushed rose, chewed gum lessons she had in Young Women’s. She will have to go to a Bishop, possibly whom she barely knows, and confess the intimate details of her sexual experience and then be disciplined in spite of her already overwhelming sense of guilt and failure. Most likely, she will be unable to partake of the sacrament, the symbol of the atonement, of which the Mormon church has taught her she’s so desperately in need. Ironically, the person most in need of forgiveness is denied the very symbols of it.

Make no mistake, I’m not advocating irresponsible sexual activity and believe youth need to be taught the possible negative consequences of their actions. Those teachings should in no way be demeaning and damaging illustrations of loss of worth portrayed by the Licked Cupcake lesson. They should include the wonderful benefits and emotional attachments created by a healthy sexual relationship between two people who love one another. They should not instill guilt or shame on youth who have already chosen to become sexually active. Youngsters should be aware of all the physical aspects of sex and the possible emotional and physical risks and be left to make their own informed decisions, free from guilt or manufactured consequences dreamed up by controlling religious demigods.

For those who believe, for religious reasons, that premarital sex is a sin, all teachings concerning sex should be tempered by a message of complete love and acceptance and forgiveness by a God who can be approached in prayer, in private, and can forgive in private, also. No embarrassing Bishop’s confessions necessary. No barring from the very symbols of the atonement which alone provides the forgiveness necessary for many religious people.

Mormonism manufactures consequences where there naturally may not be any and acts as an injured party that must grant forgiveness although there may in actuality be no injured party at all! If there were injured parties, the church certainly wouldn't be one of them. If by chance, there are natural consequences and injured parties, the church doesn't console and forgive. They heap more guilt and shame on top of what is already being experienced by the suffering sinner. In many instances Mormons manufacture guilt where they should experience none. They're trained to believe they'll never be good enough. There's rarley a good Mormon who doesn't feel a healthy dose of guilt for something. Mormonism is a vicious and punitive religious system which is best fled in the manner one would flee a burning building. It’s that damaging.

KA

[_Runtu]

Yep, the guilt is indeed manufactured. Masturbation is a good example. Virtually every male has or will masturbated, but Mormon boys are filled with shame for a rather natural and harmless practice. Maybe they worry that, like George Costanza, Mormon boys will never become hand models. ;-)

[_Ray A]

A non-Mormon girl who has safe sex her first year of college with her steady boyfriend, whom she loves, has practically no negative consequences for her behavior and in fact, may have positive benefits from the experience. A Mormon girl making the same choice of safe sex with her steady boyfriend, even once, has a multitude of negative consequences all brought upon her by the Mormon church alone, all of which are created to instill guilt and shame and exert control over every aspect of her life. She will feel a tremendous sense of guilt and shame, all caused by her Mormon conditioning and the Licked Cupcake, crushed rose, chewed gum lessons she had in Young Women’s. She will have to go to a Bishop, possibly whom she barely knows, and confess the intimate details of her sexual experience and then be disciplined in spite of her already overwhelming sense of guilt and failure. Most likely, she will be unable to partake of the sacrament, the symbol of the atonement, of which the Mormon church has taught her she’s so desperately in need. Ironically, the person most in need of forgiveness is denied the very symbols of it.

Have you ever thought, perhaps, that many, maybe even most Mormon girls choose this lifestyle of their own accord? And want this sort of lifestyle? You portray them as helpless "victims". You portray them as poor, brainwashed women who are trapped in a "cult". I know non-Mormon girls who will not have sex before marriage, because that is their choice. But if a Mormon girl believes the teachings of her church, and does not wish to have sex before marriage, how is she trapped by guilt? If she does want to have sex, then she will feel guilt, and that point is taken. It's the broad brush here that concerns me. There are many happy, well-adjusted Mormon women who never had sex before marriage, and are quite happy in their marriages. Each to his/her own. They don't view themselves as "victims" of anything, guilt, or church discipline. On the other hand, I have nothing against anyone who chooses otherwise. In fact my five children are all in defacto relationships.

[_Yoda]

Yep, the guilt is indeed manufactured. Masturbation is a good example. Virtually every male has or will masturbated, but Mormon boys are filled with shame for a rather natural and harmless practice. Maybe they worry that, like George Costanza, Mormon boys will never become hand models. ;-)

Ahh...but if you remember the famous "Master of Your Domain" Seinfeld episode, Elaine caved before two of the guys. ;)

[_KimberlyAnn]

A non-Mormon girl who has safe sex her first year of college with her steady boyfriend, whom she loves, has practically no negative consequences for her behavior and in fact, may have positive benefits from the experience. A Mormon girl making the same choice of safe sex with her steady boyfriend, even once, has a multitude of negative consequences all brought upon her by the Mormon church alone, all of which are created to instill guilt and shame and exert control over every aspect of her life. She will feel a tremendous sense of guilt and shame, all caused by her Mormon conditioning and the Licked Cupcake, crushed rose, chewed gum lessons she had in Young Women’s. She will have to go to a Bishop, possibly whom she barely knows, and confess the intimate details of her sexual experience and then be disciplined in spite of her already overwhelming sense of guilt and failure. Most likely, she will be unable to partake of the sacrament, the symbol of the atonement, of which the Mormon church has taught her she’s so desperately in need. Ironically, the person most in need of forgiveness is denied the very symbols of it.

Have you ever thought, perhaps, that many, maybe even most Mormon girls choose this lifestyle of their own accord? And want this sort of lifestyle? You portray them as helpless "victims". You portray them as poor, brainwashed women who are trapped in a "cult". I know non-Mormon girls who will not have sex before marriage, because that is their choice. But if a Mormon girl believes the teachings of her church, and does not wish to have sex before marriage, how is she trapped by guilt? If she does want to have sex, then she will feel guilt, and that point is taken. It's the broad brush here that concerns me. There are many happy, well-adjusted Mormon women who never had sex before marriage, and are quite happy in their marriages. Each to his/her own. They don't view themselves as "victims" of anything, guilt, or church discipline. On the other hand, I have nothing against anyone who chooses otherwise. In fact my five children are all in defacto relationships.

Ray, have you ever thought that most Mormon girls, especially those born into the church as I was, didn't have a choice? We may have thought we were choosing, but we weren't. Read anything written by an expert on cults. People in cults are carefully taught to believe they make their own choices, when in fact they do not. They don't know any better. I didn't know I had options. Really, Ray, I didn't have options. Not if I wanted to live a half way decent teenage life under my parent's roof.

I, too, know girls who were not Mormon who didn't have premarital sex. They made that admirable choice of their own accord, knowing that God (if they believed in God) would easily forgive them even if they made a mistake. They never had a licked cupcake lesson to scare them into chastity. And of course, Mormons aren't the only religious folks who teach that premarital sex is a sin. But there is a big difference in the way most Christians approach forgiveness and the way Mormons approach it. Let me share an example.

Although I'm not very religious, I attend a Methodist church with my husband. I was present a few weeks ago during a lesson on forgiveness. The teacher stood in front of a mixed group of students, probably ranging in age from about 12-14. She had flash paper and pens which she handed out to each child and asked them to write any sin they could think of on a piece of flash paper. The children wrote sins from lying to abortion to murder on the papers. They were collected. The instructor said that because Jesus died for their sins, all they needed to do was love him and all their sins were paid for by Jesus' death on the cross. She told them the atonement made all their sins as if they never happened. She then lit each piece of flash paper sin with a lighter. Flash paper burns with no ash or residue. The children got a clear message of forgiveness. No guilt necessary. Contrast that with the Licked Cupcake lesson and you'll see how young Mormon girls, like I used to be, are taught to feel guilty and worthless as opposed to loved and forgiven.

You're wrong, Ray. Most young Mormon girls don't have a choice of what to believe and if they do have a choice, they don't know it. I was indoctrinated from birth. I was instilled with guilt about everything from the moment I entered Primary. I guess according to you all those young girls married to David Koresh had a choice, too. After all, they could have left. They believed their religion and I'm sure didn't view themselves as victims. The same with the girls in Colorado City. And the one's who drank Jim Jones' kool-aid. They had choices, too. The same choice I had growing up in the Mormon church - to do what their parents and leaders told them or face the consequences. The choice to be taught a repressive and dangerous religion from birth. No, most Mormons won't meet the terrible fates of the poor folks born into the other cults I listed, still, they're damaged more so than any other member of any other major organized religion, save Islam. That's my opinion. And I daresay I have more experience when it comes to being raised a Mormon female than you do.

KA

[_Ray A]

You're wrong, Ray. Most young Mormon girls don't have a choice of what to believe and if they do have a choice, they don't know it. I was indoctrinated from birth. I was instilled with guilt about everything from the moment I entered Primary. I guess according to you all those young girls married to David Koresh had a choice, too. After all, they could have left. They believed their religion and I'm sure didn't view themselves as victims. The same with the girls in Colorado City. And the one's who drank Jim Jones' kool-aid. They had choices, too. The same choice I had growing up in the Mormon church - to do what their parents and leaders told them or face the consequences. The choice to be taught a repressive and dangerous religion from birth. No, most Mormons won't meet the terrible fates of the poor folks born into the other cults I listed, still, they're damaged more so than any other member of any other major organized religion, save Islam. That's my opinion. And I daresay I have more experience when it comes to being raised a Mormon female than you do.

KA

So let me see if I get your message - Mormonism is like the Koresh cult, and the Jim Jones cult, both of which are now respected world religions.

It's too bad you suffered guilt. Guilt is not a good thing. Now that you are free from the clutches of the "cult", maybe other Mormon girls who also feel trapped will read your message, and have some hope. Hopefully their transition will not be too traumatic. What I took issue with was your broad brush, and statements like this:

Consequences created by a dangerous cultish religion and designed to keep the flock in line.

Not all Mormon women who "stay in line" would agree that it's a "dangerous cultish religion".

And this:

Mormonism is a vicious and punitive religious system which is best fled in the manner one would flee a burning building. It’s that damaging.

So, your experience proves this? The millions of Mormon women happily married, and happily devoted to their church, should flee this "burning building", because KA says so? Kind of reminds me of the girl who cried "wolf!"

[_KimberlyAnn]

You're wrong, Ray. Most young Mormon girls don't have a choice of what to believe and if they do have a choice, they don't know it. I was indoctrinated from birth. I was instilled with guilt about everything from the moment I entered Primary. I guess according to you all those young girls married to David Koresh had a choice, too. After all, they could have left. They believed their religion and I'm sure didn't view themselves as victims. The same with the girls in Colorado City. And the one's who drank Jim Jones' kool-aid. They had choices, too. The same choice I had growing up in the Mormon church - to do what their parents and leaders told them or face the consequences. The choice to be taught a repressive and dangerous religion from birth. No, most Mormons won't meet the terrible fates of the poor folks born into the other cults I listed, still, they're damaged more so than any other member of any other major organized religion, save Islam. That's my opinion. And I daresay I have more experience when it comes to being raised a Mormon female than you do.

KA

So let me see if I get your message - Mormonism is like the Koresh cult, and the Jim Jones cult, both of which are now respected world religions.

It's too bad you suffered guilt. Guilt is not a good thing. Now that you are free from the clutches of the "cult", maybe other Mormon girls who also feel trapped will read your message, and have some hope. Hopefully their transition will not be too traumatic. What I took issue with was your broad brush, and statements like this:

Consequences created by a dangerous cultish religion and designed to keep the flock in line.

Not all Mormon women who "stay in line" would agree that it's a "dangerous cultish religion".

And this:

Mormonism is a vicious and punitive religious system which is best fled in the manner one would flee a burning building. It’s that damaging.

So, your experience proves this? The millions of Mormon women happily married, and happily devoted to their church, should flee this "burning building", because KA says so? Kind of reminds me of the girl who cried "wolf!"

No, I didn't say Mormonism was like those other cults, I said the youth of those cults and the Mormon cult are all indoctrinated from birth. Different beliefs and differing levels of danger and damage, as I mentioned when I noted Mormons aren't likely to meet the same fate as the members of those other cults. But the members of all of the mentioned religions are indoctrinated from birth and have less choice than you imagine in what they believe.

Sure, not everyone agrees Mormonism is a dangerous and cultish religion. I didn't when I was a Mormon. But I do believe it now that I know the truth about Joseph Smith and have had time and the help of a counselor to help me identify the damage done to me and many other folks raised as Mormons. And yes, my experience leads me to believe that everyone should know the truth about Mormonism and get out as fast as they can. And not because KA says so. They should flee becuase Mormonism's not a good place to be. It's not a good place to raise kids and it's all based on the lies of the duplicitious Joseph Smith. Also, I know others believe differently than I do, that's why I clearly began my post with, "IN MY VIEW" and stated in my first reply to you, "That's my opinion." You have yours. I have mine. It seems you don't believe the Mormon church is a cult. I do. A cult that damages women. (Men, too, but I don't have any first hand experience with that. I've no brothers and no sons.) There was nothing that could have stopped me from saving my four daughters from Mormonism. They're all out and safe and thankfully will never see a cupcake as anything other than simply dessert.

KA

[_Ray A]

Sure, not everyone agrees Mormonism is a dangerous and cultish religion. I didn't when I was a Mormon. But I do believe it now that I know the truth about Joseph Smith and have had time and the help of a counselor to help me identify the damage done to me and many other folks raised as Mormons. And yes, my experience leads me to believe that everyone should know the truth about Mormonism and get out as fast as they can. And not because KA says so. They should flee becuase Mormonism's not a good place to be. It's not a good place to raise kids and it's all based on the lies of the duplicitious Joseph Smith. Also, I know others believe differently than I do, that's why I clearly began my post with, "IN MY VIEW" and stated in my first reply to you, "That's my opinion." You have yours. I have mine. It seems you don't believe the Mormon church is a cult. I do. A cult that damages women.

You are quite entitled to your opinion. It's a free discussions board with no censorship. But I'd like to see some credible research that Mormonism damages women. Not media hype. I'm not being insensitive to your situation, and your own personal experience, or trauma, for which you needed counselling. Every individual is different.

You also say, "I do believe it now that I know the truth about Mormonism". Which is it? Do you believe it, or do you know it? Are you 100% sure that Mormonism is a fraud?

[_maklelan]

In my view, many consequences for perceived sin in the Mormon church are not necessarily natural consequences, but manufactured consequences. Consequences created by a dangerous cultish religion and designed to keep the flock in line.

For example: premarital sex. Most people have sex before they’re married. Most of them do not have children out of wedlock or STD’s. There are multitudes of people who have safe premarital sex which does not result in any negative natural consequences, or at least none as damaging as the consequences manufactured by Mormonism. Also, masturbation. Who is naturally damaged by that and what are the negative natural consequences? I can’t think of any for either situation except the consequences manufactured for Mormons by their controlling religion and the guilt they manufacture themselves because of the indoctrination provided by numerous, dangerous lessons given to them in Mormon youth programs.

A non-Mormon girl who has safe sex her first year of college with her steady boyfriend, whom she loves, has practically no negative consequences for her behavior and in fact, may have positive benefits from the experience. A Mormon girl making the same choice of safe sex with her steady boyfriend, even once, has a multitude of negative consequences all brought upon her by the Mormon church alone, all of which are created to instill guilt and shame and exert control over every aspect of her life. She will feel a tremendous sense of guilt and shame, all caused by her Mormon conditioning and the Licked Cupcake, crushed rose, chewed gum lessons she had in Young Women’s. She will have to go to a Bishop, possibly whom she barely knows, and confess the intimate details of her sexual experience and then be disciplined in spite of her already overwhelming sense of guilt and failure. Most likely, she will be unable to partake of the sacrament, the symbol of the atonement, of which the Mormon church has taught her she’s so desperately in need. Ironically, the person most in need of forgiveness is denied the very symbols of it.

Make no mistake, I’m not advocating irresponsible sexual activity and believe youth need to be taught the possible negative consequences of their actions. Those teachings should in no way be demeaning and damaging illustrations of loss of worth portrayed by the Licked Cupcake lesson. They should include the wonderful benefits and emotional attachments created by a healthy sexual relationship between two people who love one another. They should not instill guilt or shame on youth who have already chosen to become sexually active. Youngsters should be aware of all the physical aspects of sex and the possible emotional and physical risks and be left to make their own informed decisions, free from guilt or manufactured consequences dreamed up by controlling religious demigods.

For those who believe, for religious reasons, that premarital sex is a sin, all teachings concerning sex should be tempered by a message of complete love and acceptance and forgiveness by a God who can be approached in prayer, in private, and can forgive in private, also. No embarrassing Bishop’s confessions necessary. No barring from the very symbols of the atonement which alone provides the forgiveness necessary for many religious people.

Mormonism manufactures consequences where there naturally may not be any and acts as an injured party that must grant forgiveness although there may in actuality be no injured party at all! If there were injured parties, the church certainly wouldn't be one of them. If by chance, there are natural consequences and injured parties, the church doesn't console and forgive. They heap more guilt and shame on top of what is already being experienced by the suffering sinner. In many instances Mormons manufacture guilt where they should experience none. They're trained to believe they'll never be good enough. There's rarley a good Mormon who doesn't feel a healthy dose of guilt for something. Mormonism is a vicious and punitive religious system which is best fled in the manner one would flee a burning building. It’s that damaging.

KA

Actually, there is a great deal of sociological evidence that premarital sex creates a warped perception of the identity of the partner in a marriage relationship. It often leads to a kind of fragmentation where the relationship builds its foundation too heavily on physical elements. The partner's perception of the other is then much more vulnerable when those physical elements change, as they inevitably will. If sex makes up a significant portion of the individual's perception of the other as a mate, their relationship crumbles when one gets fat/thin or changes sexual habits or desires. Rather than define the quality of a relationship on something as fickle as sex, a healthy relationship is defined by intellectual, social, emotional and communication compatibility. Masturbation also plays a role in this fragmentation. Pornography also plays a leading role in most masturbatory habits, and I hope you don't actually find pornography to be a worthwhile pursuit. The consequences you feel we "manufacture" are probably just sailing over your head, so please don't just a priori dismiss it because you don't get it. If it makes you happy then more power to you, but we're happy with what we've got.

[_Seven]

Make no mistake, I’m not advocating irresponsible sexual activity and believe youth need to be taught the possible negative consequences of their actions. Those teachings should in no way be demeaning and damaging illustrations of loss of worth portrayed by the Licked Cupcake lesson. They should include the wonderful benefits and emotional attachments created by a healthy sexual relationship between two people who love one another. They should not instill guilt or shame on youth who have already chosen to become sexually active. Youngsters should be aware of all the physical aspects of sex and the possible emotional and physical risks and be left to make their own informed decisions, free from guilt or manufactured consequences dreamed up by controlling religious demigods.


KA

I bolded a point that to me has natural consequences that have nothing to do with Mormonism. For many women (and some men), having sexual relations involves an emotional attachment that can be devestating when that relationship ends. That is something very difficult to protect your children from even at an age of maturity, and why I believe sexual relations between husband and wife are the ideal.

I agree that the church should find a better approach to teaching about chastity and avoid "licked cupcake" analogies that can be physchologically damaging to some. For myself, it's the analogies that stick with me and if they are good, can be great teaching tools. The Prophets use them all the time and so did Jesus. I shared an analogy my YW teacher used on the cupcake thread and it was positive. That lesson stuck with me more than any quote from a prophet or scripture, and it didn't induce any fears or guilt.

If you don't believe virtue is a gift to be shared with only your spouse or committed life companion, then what would you teach your chldren about sex? Do they have your blessing to have sexual relations before marriage as long as they use protection and love the person? I'm wondering how as a parent you teach a child the natural consequences about sex when there are all the tools to avoid any physical consequence along with a parental blessing "when they meet the right person", and no encouragement of saving their virginity for a future spouse.