This is something that always seems to get people wound up. The LDS view (and many others) is that porn is addictive and causes brain damage and turns everyone that sees it into sick, child molesting, murdering perverts. Or something like that. I subscribe to the view that porn (meaning only the consenting adult type) can be good for a relationship. Also that Ted Bundy was just screwing with the world when he "confessed" that porn is what got him started on his serial killer ways.
I believe that the perverts seek out the porn that trips their trigger. Not that the porn causes them to be sickos. Anyway here is a link discussing a bit of it.
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_5507977
Also, to me it makes sense to attempt to regulate some of these businesses. I wouldn't want any of it seen by my grandkids (which I'll never have) or anybody else's young children. Well, this bit of regulation has been talked about for years but it certainly seems to get peoples undies in a wad, where it only makes sense to me to make adult content web sites end in .XXX. This would make filtering software much easier to set up and more effective. Opponents scream that it would only make it easier to find, as if it isn't easy enough already. I mean, how many of us have made that mistake in the past of whitehouse.com versus whitehouse.gov?
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,130153/article.html#
Pornography on the web
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_hermanuno
- _Emeritus
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- Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:46 pm
Pornography on the web
Whining is only allowed if you can't afford to buy a lobbyist to do it for you.
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_Runtu
- _Emeritus
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_Fortigurn
- _Emeritus
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- Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm
Well said Runtu. But in a capitalist driven society, what can you expect? We're taught from the cradle to the grave to treat others as commodities. Everything can be bought or sold. People are simply commercial chattels.
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
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_Mr. Coffee
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 627
- Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:18 am
In Defense of Pornography - by Mike Wong
from here
Let's start by sweeping away any doubt about where I stand on pornography: I like porno. I've watched porno, and I continue to watch porno. I'm not yet on a first name basis with the guys down at the local adult video store, but I'm getting there. Moreover, Rebecca and I are one of those couples that will watch porno together (until we start getting excited enough to make some pornographic moves of our own).
Now, it's not easy in this society to stand up in public and proudly state that one is a consumer of pornography. Some will smirk and assume that I'm a loser because they associate pornography with lonely middle-aged men for whom the porno is their entertainment while they spank the monkey in solitude (see the Masturbation Page for a list of other amusing euphemisms). Others will become uncomfortable and refuse to either agree with me or condemn me (which means that they watch it too, but they don't want anyone to know). Still others (mostly the religious folks) will unleash a sermon about the evils of pornography, generalizing about the entire genre based on its worst elements, quoting the Bible, and warning of Hellfire and brimstone.
I would therefore like to submit, for your viewing, a list of common arguments in favour of banning pornography and/or shunning those who watch it, as well as my remarks on the irrationality of those arguments. Note that in virtually every argument, one can fashion an effective rebuttal by simply applying the same "logic" to mainstream television and movies:
1. "Pornography exploits children". Obviously, this assumes that all porno is child porno, which is a totally unreasonable generalization. I've seen a lot of porno, but I've never seen child porno. Snuff films exploit death; does this somehow mean that we should ban action movies?
2. "Pornography degrades women". Again, this is an unreasonable generalization. It is unfortunately true that some porno depicts women as mere objects of sexual exploitation (although it should be noted that some porno also degrades men, particularly the sadomasochist porn in which a female "dominatrix" humiliates and abuses male "slaves"). However, one can't generalize about porno based on its worst examples, any more than one should generalize about mainstream films based on movies which glorify violence or promote and/or affirm racial stereotypes. If we should ban all pornography which depicts acts of sexual assault and domination, should we also ban all movies which glorify violence?
3. "When people view pornography, it is more likely that they will commit sexual assault." It is infuriating that this is almost always stated as a fact, even though there is no supporting evidence for this conclusion (even the shaky statistical correlations favoured by sociologists don't exist). We are reminded that most rape involves porno, but that proves nothing because porno is a multi-billion dollar business with many tens of millions of customers, the vast majority of whom are not rapists. In fact, there are numerous European countries in which both pornography and prostitution are widespread and legal, yet the incidence of rape is much lower than it is in America (in Germany, for example, explicit pornography and prostitution are both legal, yet it has less than one quarter of America's rate of sexual assault). Furthermore, even if we do accept these grossly unscientific claims of a causal relationship, this kind of reasoning is equally applicable to mainstream films which depict violence or promote or affirm racial and sexual stereotypes; should we ban them too?
4. "Pornography promotes a distorted, unrealistic view of sexuality". This is true, but mainstream films promote distorted, unrealistic views of every other aspect of life, don't they? There's nothing wrong with that, as long as everybody knows it. That, of course, leads to the fact that sex education must be liberated from the clutches of the asinine "family values" people, whose idea of family values is apparently to conceal information from their children, thus leaving them woefully unprepared for the sexual aspect of their adult life. Adolescents will see pornography sooner or later whether you like it or not, but if they've already been educated, then they'll know exactly how and where it's unrealistic, so it won't become their impromptu sex education teacher.
5. "People can grow addicted to pornography, to the point where that they won't go for an extended duration without watching it". The same could be said of mainstream television, or for that manner, anything which is particularly enjoyable. But an addiction is only unhealthy if it has destructive effects, and I reiterate that there is no evidence whatsoever for pornography's supposedly destructive effects. It is possible for someone to begin obsessing over it and spending too much time on it, but the same could be said of fanaticism about any other hobby or genre of entertainment, such as comic books, science fiction, or automobile restoration.
6. "People tend to get jaded by pornography, so that they need progressively more and more explicit material in order to induce arousal". This argument is based on experiments in which test subjects who watched pornography for extended periods required progressively more explicit material in order to maintain arousal. However, the same effect is also observed with many other forms of environmental stimuli such as violent movies or even smells and tastes; should we ban them all? It's part of our nature (the human brain is a pattern recognition machine, and it becomes bored with repetition so we tend to demand variety and escalation), and there is no rational reason to blame pornography for the fact that it is no exception to this phenomenon.
7. "Pornography erodes the traditional values of our grandparents". This is the standard right-wing religious fundamentalist moron argument. However, the "traditional values" of our grandparents were often abhorrent (for example, racism and religious intolerance, both of which were widely accepted in their era). Furthremore, pornography is not a new phenomenon; it dates back, in various forms, to virtually the dawn of recorded civilization (I've seen porn from the 1940s; it wasn't particularly exciting, but it was interesting from a historical perspective). Moreover, the consensus among psychologists is that sexual repression causes far more social damage than pornography, particularly with respect to its corrosive effect on marriages, in which sexual dissatisfaction often results directly from puritanical attitudes.
8. "Women in the porno industry are being beaten and raped." I'm sure this has happened. However, it is an extreme hasty generalization to assume that therefore, all pornography is based upon women who are beaten and raped. Moreover, we should remember that while abuses may exist, there are a lot of women in the porno industry who are well treated, and for whom it has been a highly lucrative career. Top-billed porno actresses make a lot of money for what they do, and they make even more money touring the country. No one is suggesting that people in the porno industry should be immune from prosecution if they beat and rape their actresses, since those actions would be criminal. However, generalizing about all pornography on the basis of its seediest producers and then using them as an excuse to punish the entire industry is completely illogical.
In the end, after all the hand-wringing and pseudoscientific psychobabble, the majority of anti-pornography arguments have a religious basis. As such, attempts to ban pornography represent an attempt to impose religious law upon the secular state and all of its citizens, regardless of their own religious beliefs. In other words, anti-pornography laws represent overt attempts to run democratic, secular nations like Christian theocracies. This can be seen in common arguments for and against pornography (for example, see the list of arguments for and against bans on pornography at debateinfo.com).
If you are curious about the social debate raging around the issue of pornography and censorship in our puritanical society, you might want to check out the California State University Northridge psychology department's lists of arguments for and against banning pornography.
My personal take on the censorship issue is simple: censorship should be used to keep people from profiting from criminal actions, but not simply for the sake of suppressing explicit depictions of sex. For example, child porn must be censored because children are not competent to give consent, therefore purveyors of such material would be profiting from statutory rape. But if my wife and I want to watch "Gangbang Girl #14: a Day at the Construction Yard", in which every performer was a well paid, consenting adult, then no one is profiting from criminal actions, no children are being exploited, and nobody should stick his damned nose in our private business!
from here
Let's start by sweeping away any doubt about where I stand on pornography: I like porno. I've watched porno, and I continue to watch porno. I'm not yet on a first name basis with the guys down at the local adult video store, but I'm getting there. Moreover, Rebecca and I are one of those couples that will watch porno together (until we start getting excited enough to make some pornographic moves of our own).
Now, it's not easy in this society to stand up in public and proudly state that one is a consumer of pornography. Some will smirk and assume that I'm a loser because they associate pornography with lonely middle-aged men for whom the porno is their entertainment while they spank the monkey in solitude (see the Masturbation Page for a list of other amusing euphemisms). Others will become uncomfortable and refuse to either agree with me or condemn me (which means that they watch it too, but they don't want anyone to know). Still others (mostly the religious folks) will unleash a sermon about the evils of pornography, generalizing about the entire genre based on its worst elements, quoting the Bible, and warning of Hellfire and brimstone.
I would therefore like to submit, for your viewing, a list of common arguments in favour of banning pornography and/or shunning those who watch it, as well as my remarks on the irrationality of those arguments. Note that in virtually every argument, one can fashion an effective rebuttal by simply applying the same "logic" to mainstream television and movies:
1. "Pornography exploits children". Obviously, this assumes that all porno is child porno, which is a totally unreasonable generalization. I've seen a lot of porno, but I've never seen child porno. Snuff films exploit death; does this somehow mean that we should ban action movies?
2. "Pornography degrades women". Again, this is an unreasonable generalization. It is unfortunately true that some porno depicts women as mere objects of sexual exploitation (although it should be noted that some porno also degrades men, particularly the sadomasochist porn in which a female "dominatrix" humiliates and abuses male "slaves"). However, one can't generalize about porno based on its worst examples, any more than one should generalize about mainstream films based on movies which glorify violence or promote and/or affirm racial stereotypes. If we should ban all pornography which depicts acts of sexual assault and domination, should we also ban all movies which glorify violence?
3. "When people view pornography, it is more likely that they will commit sexual assault." It is infuriating that this is almost always stated as a fact, even though there is no supporting evidence for this conclusion (even the shaky statistical correlations favoured by sociologists don't exist). We are reminded that most rape involves porno, but that proves nothing because porno is a multi-billion dollar business with many tens of millions of customers, the vast majority of whom are not rapists. In fact, there are numerous European countries in which both pornography and prostitution are widespread and legal, yet the incidence of rape is much lower than it is in America (in Germany, for example, explicit pornography and prostitution are both legal, yet it has less than one quarter of America's rate of sexual assault). Furthermore, even if we do accept these grossly unscientific claims of a causal relationship, this kind of reasoning is equally applicable to mainstream films which depict violence or promote or affirm racial and sexual stereotypes; should we ban them too?
4. "Pornography promotes a distorted, unrealistic view of sexuality". This is true, but mainstream films promote distorted, unrealistic views of every other aspect of life, don't they? There's nothing wrong with that, as long as everybody knows it. That, of course, leads to the fact that sex education must be liberated from the clutches of the asinine "family values" people, whose idea of family values is apparently to conceal information from their children, thus leaving them woefully unprepared for the sexual aspect of their adult life. Adolescents will see pornography sooner or later whether you like it or not, but if they've already been educated, then they'll know exactly how and where it's unrealistic, so it won't become their impromptu sex education teacher.
5. "People can grow addicted to pornography, to the point where that they won't go for an extended duration without watching it". The same could be said of mainstream television, or for that manner, anything which is particularly enjoyable. But an addiction is only unhealthy if it has destructive effects, and I reiterate that there is no evidence whatsoever for pornography's supposedly destructive effects. It is possible for someone to begin obsessing over it and spending too much time on it, but the same could be said of fanaticism about any other hobby or genre of entertainment, such as comic books, science fiction, or automobile restoration.
6. "People tend to get jaded by pornography, so that they need progressively more and more explicit material in order to induce arousal". This argument is based on experiments in which test subjects who watched pornography for extended periods required progressively more explicit material in order to maintain arousal. However, the same effect is also observed with many other forms of environmental stimuli such as violent movies or even smells and tastes; should we ban them all? It's part of our nature (the human brain is a pattern recognition machine, and it becomes bored with repetition so we tend to demand variety and escalation), and there is no rational reason to blame pornography for the fact that it is no exception to this phenomenon.
7. "Pornography erodes the traditional values of our grandparents". This is the standard right-wing religious fundamentalist moron argument. However, the "traditional values" of our grandparents were often abhorrent (for example, racism and religious intolerance, both of which were widely accepted in their era). Furthremore, pornography is not a new phenomenon; it dates back, in various forms, to virtually the dawn of recorded civilization (I've seen porn from the 1940s; it wasn't particularly exciting, but it was interesting from a historical perspective). Moreover, the consensus among psychologists is that sexual repression causes far more social damage than pornography, particularly with respect to its corrosive effect on marriages, in which sexual dissatisfaction often results directly from puritanical attitudes.
8. "Women in the porno industry are being beaten and raped." I'm sure this has happened. However, it is an extreme hasty generalization to assume that therefore, all pornography is based upon women who are beaten and raped. Moreover, we should remember that while abuses may exist, there are a lot of women in the porno industry who are well treated, and for whom it has been a highly lucrative career. Top-billed porno actresses make a lot of money for what they do, and they make even more money touring the country. No one is suggesting that people in the porno industry should be immune from prosecution if they beat and rape their actresses, since those actions would be criminal. However, generalizing about all pornography on the basis of its seediest producers and then using them as an excuse to punish the entire industry is completely illogical.
In the end, after all the hand-wringing and pseudoscientific psychobabble, the majority of anti-pornography arguments have a religious basis. As such, attempts to ban pornography represent an attempt to impose religious law upon the secular state and all of its citizens, regardless of their own religious beliefs. In other words, anti-pornography laws represent overt attempts to run democratic, secular nations like Christian theocracies. This can be seen in common arguments for and against pornography (for example, see the list of arguments for and against bans on pornography at debateinfo.com).
If you are curious about the social debate raging around the issue of pornography and censorship in our puritanical society, you might want to check out the California State University Northridge psychology department's lists of arguments for and against banning pornography.
My personal take on the censorship issue is simple: censorship should be used to keep people from profiting from criminal actions, but not simply for the sake of suppressing explicit depictions of sex. For example, child porn must be censored because children are not competent to give consent, therefore purveyors of such material would be profiting from statutory rape. But if my wife and I want to watch "Gangbang Girl #14: a Day at the Construction Yard", in which every performer was a well paid, consenting adult, then no one is profiting from criminal actions, no children are being exploited, and nobody should stick his damned nose in our private business!
On Mathematics: I divided by zero! Oh SHI....
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_Runtu
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 16721
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am
For the record, Mr. Coffee, I have made none of the claims you cited. My objection is simply that I believe pornography objectifies people in the same way that Fortigurn mentioned that capitalism objectifies people. When we see each other as objects or functions, I believe we lose part of our humanity. I'm not condemning you, just stating my opinion.
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_Mr. Coffee
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 627
- Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:18 am
Runtu wrote:For the record, Mr. Coffee, I have made none of the claims you cited. My objection is simply that I believe pornography objectifies people in the same way that Fortigurn mentioned that capitalism objectifies people. When we see each other as objects or functions, I believe we lose part of our humanity. I'm not condemning you, just stating my opinion.
I was just posting one of the better pro-pornography essays I've read, Runtu. I know you were voicing your opinion, and I also know you didn't say anything about me either.
But I will ask you how you arrive at the conclusion that viewing pornography interfiers with an individuals ability to create or maintain healthy relationships with others? My girlfriend and I both enjoy viewing porn, we have a very stable and loving relationship, and we both have no problems in maintaining good relations with either our friends or buisness associates. If anything, Linda and I are the norm from what I've noticed.
It's only when taken to excess that you see the sort of problems you meantioned earlier. But that is true for just about any activity. All things in moderation, bro.
On Mathematics: I divided by zero! Oh SHI....
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_Seven
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 998
- Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:52 pm
I would like people to get involved with stopping porn. That starts at home with what we support and watch but
I can't even choose to keep it out of my computer or TV anymore. Those "girls gone wild" commercials come on at night, and we don't subscribe to adult channels. Porn pop ups constantly come on the computer and no amount of filtering has kept them out. Once you try to X out of them, it takes you to more pictures.. One time I had to shut off the computer to get out of a site I had accidentally clicked on to.
Porn is very tempting for many people to watch and now it that it can be done with secrecy it's become out of control.
People lose jobs, spouses, morals etc. over it.
I know some families who were ruined by porn addiction. Porn is often the first step to other destructive behavior. I am not saying if you watch porn you will become an adulterer but it has contributed to adultery in families I know that were destroyed by it. I have talked to men that admitted it is very hard to stop watching it once they started.
I can't even choose to keep it out of my computer or TV anymore. Those "girls gone wild" commercials come on at night, and we don't subscribe to adult channels. Porn pop ups constantly come on the computer and no amount of filtering has kept them out. Once you try to X out of them, it takes you to more pictures.. One time I had to shut off the computer to get out of a site I had accidentally clicked on to.
Porn is very tempting for many people to watch and now it that it can be done with secrecy it's become out of control.
People lose jobs, spouses, morals etc. over it.
I know some families who were ruined by porn addiction. Porn is often the first step to other destructive behavior. I am not saying if you watch porn you will become an adulterer but it has contributed to adultery in families I know that were destroyed by it. I have talked to men that admitted it is very hard to stop watching it once they started.
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_hermanuno
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:46 pm
Seven wrote:I would like people to get involved with stopping porn. That starts at home with what we support and watch but
I can't even choose to keep it out of my computer or TV anymore. Those "girls gone wild" commercials come on at night, and we don't subscribe to adult channels. Porn pop ups constantly come on the computer and no amount of filtering has kept them out. Once you try to X out of them, it takes you to more pictures.. One time I had to shut off the computer to get out of a site I had accidentally clicked on to.
Porn is very tempting for many people to watch and now it that it can be done with secrecy it's become out of control.
People lose jobs, spouses, morals etc. over it.
I know some families who were ruined by porn addiction. Porn is often the first step to other destructive behavior. I am not saying if you watch porn you will become an adulterer but it has contributed to adultery in families I know that were destroyed by it. I have talked to men that admitted it is very hard to stop watching it once they started.
But you do not know if the person was sick in the head and that is one of the things that were sought out by the already damaged mind was porn. It cannot be proven that porn was the destroyer of the marriage. As has been pointed out, millions of people have watched porn and then proceed to do absolutely nothing wrong. My bet still goes on the person would have behaved in the exact same way (adultery) without the porn "addiction."
Talk about objectifying people, hell most of our jobs do that. They aren't customers, they are dollars or revenue. My bosses have always treated me as an object. An object that is supposed to generate revenue for the company.
By the way, As far as your computer and the pop ups, I think you'll find someone has been using your computer looking for porn. The only times I've experienced what you describe is when, years ago, I went looking for porn. Now 7 or 8 years later, with a good fire wall (ZONEALARM) and antivirus program and several anti spyware (WINDOWS DEFENDER is only one them) I've have had no troubles. It is sad that we have to go to this effort to protect ourselves, but we have to buy locks for our doors don't we? Same thing. You've got to protect yourself all the time.
Whining is only allowed if you can't afford to buy a lobbyist to do it for you.
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_Yoda
Mr. Coffee wrote:My personal take on the censorship issue is simple: censorship should be used to keep people from profiting from criminal actions, but not simply for the sake of suppressing explicit depictions of sex. For example, child porn must be censored because children are not competent to give consent, therefore purveyors of such material would be profiting from statutory rape. But if my wife and I want to watch "Gangbang Girl #14: a Day at the Construction Yard", in which every performer was a well paid, consenting adult, then no one is profiting from criminal actions, no children are being exploited, and nobody should stick his damned nose in our private business!
I agree with your stance on this. It also sounds like you are able to utilize pornography as a healthy part of your relationship.
I really don't see men viewing porn any differently than women reading sexy romance novels. Men are stimulated visually. Women are stimulated more by fantasy.
If we're talking about consenting adults viewing something in the privacy of their own home, and we're not talking about child porn, I don't see a problem.
I do think that as adults, we have to be responsible and take things in moderation. Just like anything else, if viewing or reading porn is taking over your life...If it's restricting you from doing your job, spending time with your family, engaging in a healthy relationship with your spouse (or significant other)...then obviously, it's not something you should be doing.
I do agree with having all of the porn sites have .xxx at the end of the URL because I think that we should avoid having kids stumble across this stuff unnecessarily. That being said, though...I don't think that kids should have carte blanche access to the Internet, anyway.
My kids access the computer in a public room. If a pop-up does happen, their Dad or I am there to see it and help get rid of it if necessary. This can also become a teaching opportunity to talk with your kids about sex, porn, etc.
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_Trinity
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:36 pm
I'm not a huge fan of pornography. The biggest reason is that I am more of a player than a watcher, I'd rather actually engage in sex than watch someone else do it. It's more fun that way. I think that sex, on its own, is the only prop needed in order to enjoy this activity. I have seen instances where people/couples start relying on props to jumpstart sexual desire and it seems they become dependent on the use of props in order for them to get the enjoyment they want.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008