Unbelieving the unbelievable...

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_Roger Morrison
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Unbelieving the unbelievable...

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Spong says more on Fundamentalism:
"God wrote it! I believe it! That does it!" Those words adorned the bumper of a car I saw in the deep South. "This is the word of the Lord!" That is a liturgical phrase heard after the scriptures are read in many Christian churches. "The Bible says!" "It's in the Bible!" Those are phrases frequently heard in religious debate. When these phrases are introduced there is a sense that this is the last word and that no higher appeal to truth can be cited. The "inerrant word of God" has, however, supported throughout history a wide variety of completely discredited practices. The Bible was quoted to claim that kings rule by divine right, that the earth is the center of the universe around which the sun rotates, that slavery, segregation and apartheid are legitimate and moral social institutions, that women must be kept in second class positions, that evolution is wrong and that homosexuality is a condition condemned by God. In each of these cultural debates the Bible has lost! Despite these constant defeats the tenacity of this irrational and patently absurd idea is still asserted. It is therefore not surprising to discover that the claim of inerrancy for the scriptures as the "Word of God" would be the first line drawn in the sand when the beleaguered conservative Protestants struck back against the modern world in the early 1900's. They seemed not to be aware that this claim reflects both an almost total ignorance of biblical scholarship and has been the source of enormous human evil over the years of Christian history. Behind every burned heretic, at the heart of every debilitating human prejudice that has ever plagued the Western World, the justifying claim of biblical inerrancy can still be heard. If that claim is an essential ingredient in Christianity, then surely the Christian God is destined to join Marduk, Baal and the gods of the Olympus in the museums of human history in an exhibit of "Dead Deities." The fact that even today in 2007 religious leaders like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Albert Mohler and a host of lesser known lights can still utter this claim without a gullible public being convulsed with laughter at its absurdity is proof of the tenacity of religious superstition and of the enduring human, but nonetheless neurotic, need for certainty.


I cannot help but wonder when the scales will be tipped to see the Bible for what it is? Man's word of the "unknown "God""...

Spong concludes this essay on the "Five Points of Fundamentalism":

The Bible is not, I repeat, is not the "Word of God" in any literal sense. Repeat that line once or twice a day until you no longer expect lightning to strike you dead when you utter it. To kill an idol in whose service you have lived in both bondage and fear is never easy. The real tragedy, however, is that bondage to any idol, even the idol of the Bible, makes it impossible, as history reveals, to be fully human [b]and that is clearly the final goal of Christianity.[/b] (Bold added)



Spong detractors accuse him of being a "nonbeliever". I think the bolded prooves otherwise... Warm regards, Roger
_richardMdBorn
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Re: Unbelieving the unbelievable...

Post by _richardMdBorn »

Roger Spong says more on Fundamentalism:
They seemed not to be aware that this claim reflects both an almost total ignorance of biblical scholarship and has been the source of enormous human evil over the years of Christian history.

Richard Was B.B. Warfield ignorant of biblical scholarship? No. He was a leading scholar in his time (c 1851-1921). Rather, he had a most lower opinion than Spong of higher criticism. Face it Spong, there are great scholars who disagree with you.

Roger (Spong) at the heart of every debilitating human prejudice that has ever plagued the Western World, the justifying claim of biblical inerrancy can still be heard

Richard So is Christian inerrancy responsible for social Darwinism which was used by the Nazis. Was inerrancy responsible for Stalin's murdering 30M+ Soviets. Is inerrancy responsible for the Muslim's murders of Islamic critics.
_Roger Morrison
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Re: Unbelieving the unbelievable...

Post by _Roger Morrison »

richardMdBorn wrote:Roger Spong says more on Fundamentalism:
They seemed not to be aware that this claim reflects both an almost total ignorance of biblical scholarship and has been the source of enormous human evil over the years of Christian history.

Richard Was B.B. Warfield ignorant of biblical scholarship? No. He was a leading scholar in his time (c 1851-1921). Rather, he had a most lower opinion than Spong of higher criticism. Face it Spong, there are great scholars who disagree with you.

Roger (Spong) at the heart of every debilitating human prejudice that has ever plagued the Western World, the justifying claim of biblical inerrancy can still be heard

Richard So is Christian inerrancy responsible for social Darwinism which was used by the Nazis. Was inerrancy responsible for Stalin's murdering 30M+ Soviets. Is inerrancy responsible for the Muslim's murders of Islamic critics.


Richard, what do you question in Spong's assertions? And please substantiate where Spong is wrong... :-) With all due respect Rich, i don't see the relevance of your comments to the fact that folks have been saying, "Word of God" when in fact it isn't! Other than, that is how it was/is presented. Surely you do see that. Or, don't you?

IF not, please explain...

"What IS ERRANCY responsible for?" Might be a better question. For starters: leading folks to belief in a dichotomous, wrathful, prejudiced "God" that does not exist. This is followed by the efforts of those folks to please such a nonexisting "God". An impossibilty from what ever direction a person attempts the impossible... The results too often end in shame, guilt, fear, despair and blood shed in the extreme. Can all atrocities be lumped under THE one umbrella? I don't think so. Nor do "I" think Spong implies that.

A person with your education, and back ground in science (GPS) i think would depend on a "God" who is not influenced by rituals and subservience??? That "God" is consistant, and dependable up to the "law of probability" so to speak??? Science depends on that. As do we when we step aboard a "Jet Plane".

Spong is not saying, "there is no "God"!" He is simply saying the ancient, traditional understanding of our Judeo-Christian "God", portrayed in the Bible, is faulty...

Why does that disturb You so? Warm regards, Roger
_richardMdBorn
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Post by _richardMdBorn »

Hi Roger,

My new comments are in bold.

Galileo believed that the Bible was inerrant; so did his opponents. What then is the historical efficacy of stating that
The "inerrant word of God" has, however, supported throughout history a wide variety of completely discredited practices. The Bible was quoted to claim that kings rule by divine right, that the earth is the center of the universe around which the sun rotates
And the Bible was quoted by Galileo. Clearly the opponents of Galileo had baptized the cosmology of Ptolemy.
In each of these cultural debates the Bible has lost!
Is Spong’s standard of truth whatever is currently fashionable? That’s a pretty weak standard. The Nazi’s disliked the Gospel of John because it states that, “salvation is of the Jews”. Does that make it untrue.

Spong They seemed not to be aware that this claim reflects both an almost total ignorance of biblical scholarship and has been the source of enormous human evil over the years of Christian history.

Richard Was B.B. Warfield ignorant of biblical scholarship? No. He was a leading scholar in his time (c 1851-1921). Rather, he had a most lower opinion than Spong of higher criticism. Face it Spong, there are great scholars who disagree with you.


Roger Richard, what do you question in Spong's assertions? And please substantiate where Spong is wrong... :-) With all due respect Rich, I don't see the relevance of your comments to the fact that folks have been saying, "Word of God" when in fact it isn't! Other than, that is how it was/is presented. Surely you do see that. Or, don't you?

IF not, please explain...

Richard Spong asserts that belief in inerrancy reflects an ignorance of biblical scholarship. Warfield knew modern skeptical biblical scholarship well and rejected it as incorrect.

Roger Might be a better question. For starters: leading folks to belief in a dichotomous, wrathful, prejudiced "God" that does not exist. This is followed by the efforts of those folks to please such a nonexisting "God".

Richard And where is the proof of this?

Roger I think would depend on a "God" who is not influenced by rituals and subservience??? That "God" is consistant, and dependable up to the "law of probability" so to speak??? Science depends on that. As do we when we step aboard a "Jet Plane".

Richard Ah, a domesticated God. Remember that Aslan is good but he’s not tame.

Roger Spong is not saying, "there is no "God"!" He is simply saying the ancient, traditional understanding of our Judeo-Christian "God", portrayed in the Bible, is faulty...

Why does that disturb You so? Warm regards, Roger[/quote]

Richard Because Spong cries peace peace where there is not peace.

Spong says person A did X and believed in inerrancy; therefore, the belief in inerrancy caused the person to do X. Don't you see the problem with that approach?
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Galileo believed that the Bible was inerrant; so did his opponents. What then is the historical efficacy of stating that
Quote:
The "inerrant word of God" has, however, supported throughout history a wide variety of completely discredited practices. The Bible was quoted to claim that kings rule by divine right, that the earth is the center of the universe around which the sun rotates
And the Bible was quoted by Galileo. Clearly the opponents of Galileo had baptized the cosmology of Ptolemy.

Galileo's forced recantation of his theories backed by his observations, should stand as proof to the inerrancy of brute force and threat of pain and death. He escaped this by his recantation and remained under house arrest until his death.
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_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

But really, Galileo knew what he was doing. If you want to ride the tiger, you have to be ready for what happens when you decide to get off. I think he should have been a lot more sensible.
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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Richard,

I found the remarks posted by Sponge rather reasonable.

Do you believe the Bible is literal and innerrent in total? It seems to me that you are dodging the issues. Who cares, and how do you even know Galileo thought the Bible was innerrent? What bearign does this have on whether it really is or not.
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Galileo intelligently believed that the Bible, correctly interpreted, would never contradict reason, correctly applied.
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_richardMdBorn
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Post by _richardMdBorn »

Jason Bourne wrote:Richard,

I found the remarks posted by Sponge rather reasonable.

Do you believe the Bible is literal and innerrent in total? It seems to me that you are dodging the issues. Who cares, and how do you even know Galileo thought the Bible was innerrent? What bearign does this have on whether it really is or not.
Hi Jason.,

I believe that the original manuscripts were inerrant and the text that we have today is close. I believe in interpreting a biblical passage in a way which is consistent with its genre. Thus, wisdom literature is different from narrative.

Which issues am I dodging IYO.

Richard
_huckelberry
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Post by _huckelberry »

Spong states, "to kill an idol which you have lived under and served is alway hard"

that may explain a bit about Spong that I have difficulty understanding. He seems frantic to get out from under a form a rigid thinking I have never actually personaly experienced. The reading of the Bible in the manner he wants to escape has never gone through my mind. I do not even know how one would start it.

But as an antidote he suggests repeating a dogmatic proposition over and over. Bizarre. What became of thought? What became of reflection on evidence, experience or experiment?

But if one undertook reflection, alternatives to Spongs rigid dogmatism might make their appearance. One the one hand a person if not liking the Bible might look elsewhere than church or religion for understanding. If a person senses truth in the Bible one might come to understand that it can be both the word of man and the word of God.

But that last is a bit difficult for black and white dogmatism.
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