Anti-Mormonism ineffective? So says bsix

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_dartagnan
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Anti-Mormonism ineffective? So says bsix

Post by _dartagnan »

Threads like the recent ones on FAIR just make me shake my head and wonder just how far some apologists are out of touch with reality. Bsix decided to start a thread bragging because he says the anti-Mormon message isn’t effective because in his experience of various callings in four different wards he is only aware of one or two people who have left because of ant-Mormon materials.

I have also had numerous callings in my 18 years in the Church (Nine wards in three countries) and I can only think of two or three people who were even subjected to anti-Mormon literature. I mean let’s be honest, Mormons are told so many horror stories about books critical of the faith that they are scared to death of them. Your spirituality would drop through the floor if you even get near one. If a neighbor or acquaintance tries to speak to you of anything critical of the faith, you’re to report it to your bishop in your next temple recommend meeting. Why do you think the "More Good Foundation" exists? It is trying to circumvent the inevitable exposure Mormons will have to the plethora of anti websites. Same as Allen Wyatt's stunt with the domain names.

Well, if what bsix says is true, then they shouldn't be worried at all because they are all ineffective. But the fact is these efforts exist because they are effective.

When I attended the FAIR conference back in 2001 I brought along a dozen or so copies of JP Holding’s book called the Mormon Defenders. I passed them out to various apologists who wanted to tear it apart in an upcoming review. Dan Peterson asked for as many copies as I could spare. At the conference I remember walking up to Lance Starr and asking him if he had requested a copy. He didn’t make eye-contact, but said very roughly “NO I DID NOT.” And he then turned his back to me and walked off. It was only at that point that I realized some of the Mormons were offended that I would bring such “evil” into their presence.

I had also stayed with another FAIR member during that weekend and his wife told me she had to pray before letting me in the house with those books. She came very close to kicking me out because I brought that kind of evil into her home.

When I was investigating the Church at age 17, my Grandmother had mailed me a transcript of the John Ankerberg show. I was just curious about some of the stuff it contained and didn’t really realize it was anti-Mormon at first. I took it to school with me and during lunch I gave it to Rhonda, the Mormon girl I had a crush on; the oldest child in the LDS family that introduced me to the Church. I asked her what the heck this stuff was. She read for maybe 20 seconds and then starting balling. I mean she was really crying up a storm and said, “Kev, this is anti-Mormon literature!” She then ignored me for the rest of the week along with her entire family. The assumption was that just because I had been subjected to anti-Mormon literature, that I was already convinced of it. They made absolutely no attempts to answer or resolve anything for me because it was as if they felt they might be converted too, or at the very least, their spirituality would sink. I was more offended by their reaction to me than I was the material itself. Later after I was baptized and served a mission, I learned how taboo it was to even speak of books critical of the faith. Here are some comments from the FAIR/MAD forum:

bsix: In large however, antiMormon propaganda does not seem to be converting members to traditional Christianity in large numbers


And to be honest, Mormons are not subjected to it either. In my experience, those who are subjected to it are almost always affected by it. This is why the Church puts so much effort in trying to control the members, scaring them into ignoring any critical information thrown their way.

Nehor: The problem is incentive.Their rewards system is not as good. Mormonism tells me I can be a God and rule the cosmos with my wife or even possibly wives around me forever. It tells me the Universe will bend to my will and whim and that I have eternity to play around with creative power making more perfect and much neater things.


Wow. How many times have Evangelicals said this was the LDS “incentive”, just to be told they are intolerant, bigots, ignorant and that none of this is official doctrine?

Libs: the anti-propaganda doesn't work, because most LDS can see right through the distortions they put out there. Plus, most of us have a good strong testimony of this Church. That's really the bottom line. And the ex-lds I have had contact with..many not only didn't understand LDS doctrine, but they never had a testimony of the church.


This is the usual rationalization offered and assumed. If someone falls it is because they weren’t really Mormon to begin with. But then, Mormons are conditioned into this type of thinking too. The fault is always on the part of the one who falls away. It cannot possibly have anything to do with the convincing power of the arguments “antis” use.

But let’s deal with some facts. Do LDS apologists really want to compare the effectiveness of each side (LDS missionaries and anti-Mormons)? When I served my mission there were 29,000 missionaries and the Church was baptizing around 400,000/year. Lately the number of missionaries has doubled while the converts are practically cut in half. The Church was averaging ten converts per missionary whereas it now averages between 4 and 6. And what has changed over the past 10 years? The information superhighway was not available in the 80’s. That made it extremely easy for the Church to shield its membership from the critical arguments. Ad let us not forget that of those hundreds of thousands of converts, more than half will fall into inactivity. How many of them leave because of anti-Mormonism? Who can say?

Missionaries aren’t likely to find prospective converts without either internet access, or friends who do have access. Anti-Mormonism is winning, to be sure. Bsix is kidding himself. I have stated on numerous occasions that I do not want my wards knowing about my website because not everyone had a bulletproof testimony and what happens is that the typical Mormon stumbles on my website and starts reading refutations to arguments he never knew existed. And then he probes further and starts looking at the critic websites. Next thing you know we have another Mormon who is struggling on the fence. That is all it takes. I have always known how powerful the critics’ arguments are. Just look at the ridiculous apologetics that is taking place on the Book of Abraham. You got BPT (Bullet-Proof- Testimony) Mormons making up these ridiculous excuses as to how Smith could get virtually everything wrong and still be an inspired prophet of the restoration. This won’t fly with most Mormons and I think they realize this. Heck, most Mormons don’t even know where the Book of Abraham came from, nor do they tend to read it unless they are following along in Church. Nobody in my ward can tell me squat about it. None of them realize that it can be tested, unlike the Book of Mormon, and confirm or disconfirm whether or not Smith was a prophet. The Church should like to keep it that way too. Ignorance is bliss.

But there really are some “bad” arguments out there and some of these Evangelical Churches are probably doing more damage than good for their own side. The DVD that is being passed out is perhaps 90% crap. Perhaps only 10% of it is sound enough to persuade most Mormons, but Mormons look for the obvious errors and then uses this as the reason for discarding the entire thing.
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Absolutely right. You're right that most Mormons have had no exposure whatsoever to anti-Mormon materials. And you're also right that 90% or more of the anti-Mormon stuff out there is pure crap. The pattern you describe (church member reads an apologetics piece dedicated to an issue he or she has never heard of and then digs a little deeper and ends up badly shaken) has been played out many times.

I've said many times that there's no need for polemical, distorted attacks on the church. It's easy (and fair) to judge the church by the truth.
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Post by _Who Knows »

Runtu wrote:I've said many times that there's no need for polemical, distorted attacks on the church. It's easy (and fair) to judge the church by the truth.


The problem (for the EVs) is that if they went that route, they'd basically be tearing apart their own religion at the same time.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Who Knows wrote:
Runtu wrote:I've said many times that there's no need for polemical, distorted attacks on the church. It's easy (and fair) to judge the church by the truth.


The problem (for the EVs) is that if they went that route, they'd basically be tearing apart their own religion at the same time.


Luckily I'm not an EV. :-)
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Anti-Mormonism ineffective? So says bsix

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Very interesting commentary, dartagnan.

dartagnan wrote:Just look at the ridiculous apologetics that is taking place on the Book of Abraham. You got BPT (Bullet-Proof- Testimony) Mormons making up these ridiculous excuses as to how Smith could get virtually everything wrong and still be an inspired prophet of the restoration. This won’t fly with most Mormons and I think they realize this.


You know, I'm not so sure about this. Of course, there's no way to test that statement, but I honestly wonder what % it would indeed "fly" with. Personally, I think it's much higher than anyone would think.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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_Runtu
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Re: Anti-Mormonism ineffective? So says bsix

Post by _Runtu »

Dr. Shades wrote:You know, I'm not so sure about this. Of course, there's no way to test that statement, but I honestly wonder what % it would indeed "fly" with. Personally, I think it's much higher than anyone would think.


I agree. I wrote this on a different thread, but it applies here:

A couple of cases to ponder:

The originators of "crop circles" have acknowledged that it was a hoax and described in detail how they did it.

The originators of "Bigfoot" have also acknowledged that it was a hoax and described in detail how they did it.

Nevertheless, there are still many people who believe a "Bigfoot" creature exists and at least as many who believe that crop circles are the work of aliens.

I'm pretty confident that, even if a signed confession from Joseph Smith were produced, there would still be a large number of believers, and the church would still survive.
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Re: Anti-Mormonism ineffective? So says bsix

Post by _Some Schmo »

Runtu wrote:
I'm pretty confident that, even if a signed confession from Joseph Smith were produced, there would still be a large number of believers, and the church would still survive.


I don't think there's any doubt about this. People aren't really Mormons because it's grounded in logic, true, or reasonable. People are Mormons because they've invested (emotionally and financially) in it and it's what best serves their particular set of circumstances.

As FAIR has demonstrated time and time again, all the logic in the world will not persuade the illogical.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

You know, I'm not so sure about this. Of course, there's no way to test that statement, but I honestly wonder what % it would indeed "fly" with. Personally, I think it's much higher than anyone would think.


It is just my sense of things. Virtually every Mormon I speak with on controversial issues they would otherwise know nothing about, have had internal struggles because of it. Just an example, while living in Orlando I had a fireside held at my home and a couple of Mormon couples were discussing the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. One said that some anti-Mormon told him that Smith had a pistol on him and that this must have been a lie. I kindly pointed out that this was no lie at all, and I proceeded to elaborate on the account, summarizing John taylor's eye-witness report.

I have no idea why, but everyone seemed to have been bothered by what I said, as if I had destroyed one of their precious assumptions. And again, I don't know why because this is such an irrelevant point regarding the truthfulness of the gospel. Smith could had died while shooting at his attackers and the Church could still be true.

In another example, my wife was frustrated because I had been online all day arguing with an Evangelical. She said "what are you guys arguing about" and I said the LDS belief of many gods. She looked at me with a smirk and said "that is so stupid, we only believe one God exists." I then decided to find out just how much my wife really knew about LDS doctrine and decided to expound of the doctrine of theosis. It all flew right over her head as if she had heard this for the very first time. She initially thought I was playing a sick joke on her. She had serious issues with this for months afterwards and I did my best to explain it to her in a way that didn't make her feel as though she had been swindled into a belief system that was less than forthcoming. Keep in mind this was when I was just as TBM as the next FAIRite, and I was very concerned about other LDS listening to "meat" before they were ready.

Suffice it to say, the only people in the Church I know who bury their heads in the sand and rehearse pad responses are those online, who have taught themselves to act this way. So I truly believe that if the average Mormon were to sit down and watch the IRR presentation on the Book of Abraham, that a good portion would leave or otherwise express serious concerns with their peers. But the problem is that it is extremely difficult for some people to leave the faith without making an impact on many people around them, so it is often a very delicate situation that many would rather dodge.

I am sure that 65% of the Church is inactive and I would say that about 15-20% of those who are "active" are active not because they have bullet proof testimonies that this is the "One True Church," but rather, because they do not know how to leave. You probably know who I am talking about. The guy who looks bored off his rocker, trying not to fall asleep during all the meetings. Every ward has at least three of these who make it obvious they're just not "into it." But this goes for Mormons of all stripes, not just the recent converts who "never really knew true LDS doctrine." We even have a current bishop on this forum who is struggling with issues in the Church (no, don't ask me to point him out).
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Post by _Runtu »

dartagnan wrote:It is just my sense of things. Virtually every Mormon I speak with on controversial issues they would otherwise know nothing about, have had internal struggles because of it. Just an example, while living in Orlando I had a fireside held at my home and a couple of Mormon couples were discussing the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. One said that some anti-Mormon told him that Smith had a pistol on him and that this must have been a lie. I kindly pointed out that this was no lie at all, and I proceeded to elaborate on the account, summarizing John taylor's eye-witness report.

I have no idea why, but everyone seemed to have been bothered by what I said, as if I had destroyed one of their precious assumptions. And again, I don't know why because this is such an irrelevant point regarding the truthfulness of the gospel. Smith could had died while shooting at his attackers and the Church could still be true.

In another example, my wife was frustrated because I had been online all day arguing with an Evangelical. She said "what are you guys arguing about" and I said the LDS belief of many gods. She looked at me with a smirk and said "that is so stupid, we only believe one God exists." I then decided to find out just how much my wife really knew about LDS doctrine and decided to expound of the doctrine of theosis. It all flew right over her head as if she had heard this for the very first time. She initially thought I was playing a sick joke on her. She had serious issues with this for months afterwards and I did my best to explain it to her in a way that didn't make her feel as though she had been swindled into a belief system that was less than forthcoming. Keep in mind this was when I was just as TBM as the next FAIRite, and I was very concerned about other LDS listening to "meat" before they were ready.

Suffice it to say, the only people in the Church I know who bury their heads in the sand and rehearse pad responses are those online, who have taught themselves to act this way. So I truly believe that if the average Mormon were to sit down and watch the IRR presentation on the Book of Abraham, that a good portion would leave or otherwise express serious concerns with their peers. But the problem is that it is extremely difficult for some people to leave the faith without making an impact on many people around them, so it is often a very delicate situation that many would rather dodge.

I am sure that 65% of the Church is inactive and I would say that about 15-20% of those who are "active" Church are active not because they have bullet proof testimonies that this is the "One True Church," but rather, because they do not know how to leave. This goes for Mormons of all stripes, not just the recent converts who "never really knew true LDS doctrine." We even have a current bishop on this forum who is struggling with issues in the Church (no, don't ask me to point him out).


I really don't know. You may be right. My only experience with these issues has been with online apologists, who have to one degree or another, worked these things out to their satisfaction (I used to be one of them). I can't say what the average member would say when exposed to some of this stuff. Of course, if it shook their faith, we'd have the folks over on the other board telling them it's their fault that they didn't know church history and origins.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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Post by _Who Knows »

dartagnan wrote:Suffice it to say, the only people in the Church I know who bury their heads in the sand and rehearse pad responses are those online, who have taught themselves to act this way. So I truly believe that if the average Mormon were to sit down and watch the IRR presentation on the Book of Abraham, that a good portion would leave or otherwise express serious concerns with their peers. But the problem is that it is extremely difficult for some people to leave the faith without making an impact on many people around them, so it is often a very delicate situation that many would rather dodge.


I don't know if i totally agree.

I've spoken to a few people in the 'real world' and mentioned some troubling items. The usual response i get is "i really don't care. I'm a Mormon, that's how i grew up, that's what i know, all my friends and family are Mormons. i enjoy life, and don't really see a need to change anything. I don't get into church history. I just go to church, take my family, pay my tithing, and live my life."

Mind you, these are 'utah' Mormons - so they may be kinda different.

But on the whole, i've found that people just don't really care enough about it either way. it is what it is.

That's also been what's so frustrating in dealing with this stuff with my family. They just don't care about it. They're happy, and don't want to 'disrupt' things.

edit - i think tal's 'would you want to know' question rings true. Most people i've spoken with, wouldn't even want to know if the church weren't true.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
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