was polygamy ever used to browbeat young men?

[_Sethbag]

I was thinking about polygamy as I went upstairs to make some oatmeal for breakfast. It was because of posts here and on MAD.

I realized that polygamy would add a whole new dimension to the relationship young men would have with the older generation and leadership of the church. Nowadays, the young men of the church are only competing with each other for wives, but back in the bad ole days of Utah polygamy, the young men would not only be competing with each other, but also with the older generation and church leaders. This could be used as a weapon, really. If a young man was getting out of line, the church leaders could simply move in on any girl this guy got interested in, and tell that girl that the Lord had given her to them, and the young man would pretty much be out of luck.

Is there any evidence that polygamy was ever used this way? I know I've read the story about the bishop that had a young guy's nuts cut off because the young guy wanted to marry a girl the bishop had the hots for. But was that just the bishop having the hots for a young girl, or was he using the girl to pressure the young man into increased compliance with the leadership? I don't know. I'm really curious about this.

I'm guessing a lot of us went to BYU, and a lot of us got married while at BYU. Can you imagine going to BYU, and going out with girls, looking for one to marry, and always having to worry that your professors, your bishop, your stake president, even the BYU president himself, and his assistants, the BYU police department, employees, etc. might also swoop in and take her instead? Isn't that just too wierd, that a young man would face competition from not just his own generation of guys, but from all living men, no matter their marital status?

Makes me glad I didn't grow up a young man in polygamy.

[_Sethbag]

I realized as I was typing this that this is exactly what happened with the FLDS. So I guess there's part of my answer. I'm wondering if there's evidence of this happening in the LDS during the bad ole days of Utah polygamy?

[_KimberlyAnn]

I was thinking about polygamy as I went upstairs to make some oatmeal for breakfast. It was because of posts here and on MAD.

I realized that polygamy would add a whole new dimension to the relationship young men would have with the older generation and leadership of the church. Nowadays, the young men of the church are only competing with each other for wives, but back in the bad ole days of Utah polygamy, the young men would not only be competing with each other, but also with the older generation and church leaders. This could be used as a weapon, really. If a young man was getting out of line, the church leaders could simply move in on any girl this guy got interested in, and tell that girl that the Lord had given her to them, and the young man would pretty much be out of luck.

Is there any evidence that polygamy was ever used this way? I know I've read the story about the bishop that had a young guy's nuts cut off because the young guy wanted to marry a girl the bishop had the hots for. But was that just the bishop having the hots for a young girl, or was he using the girl to pressure the young man into increased compliance with the leadership? I don't know. I'm really curious about this.

I'm guessing a lot of us went to BYU, and a lot of us got married while at BYU. Can you imagine going to BYU, and going out with girls, looking for one to marry, and always having to worry that your professors, your bishop, your stake president, even the BYU president himself, and his assistants, the BYU police department, employees, etc. might also swoop in and take her instead? Isn't that just too wierd, that a young man would face competition from not just his own generation of guys, but from all living men, no matter their marital status?

Makes me glad I didn't grow up a young man in polygamy.

Sethbag, I don't remember the source, and I don't have time to look it up at the moment, but I remember reading the journal of a missionary to England or something of the sort, stating that they weren't to marry the young women they converted, but were to bring the women back to Utah so the older gentlemen could have first shot at them. Ugh. How completely creepy! Those poor girls - they didn't know what they were in for! And the poor boys. As you said, fearing having their girlfriends stolen by grandpa.

Also, didn't Brigham Young say something about a woman being able to leave her husband for a man with greater priesthood? I'm fairly certain he did. The guys didn't have to stop worrying once they were married, I guess. I wonder if women were in short supply? It's logical that they may have been.

KA

[_truth dancer]

Hi Sethbag... You bring up such a great point.

Think of the young people of the day...

Boys and young men who are attracted to the girls and young women with no chance of having a girlfriend or any normal relationship with a female, let alone marriage.

And young girls (think beehives and MIA maids), knowing they would be given/assigned/taken by men as old as their grandfathers or fathers.

This just had nothing whatsoever to do with a loving, mature, relationship and everything to do with the obvious.

It just truly sickens me.

~dancer~

[_beastie]

“Kimball always kept an eye out for romance. ‘Brethren,’ he instructed some departing missionaries, ‘I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake.”

- The Lion of the Lord, by Stanley P. Hirshon, pp. 129-130

“The Second Way in which a wife can be separated from her husband, while he continues to be faithful to his God and his priesthood, I have not revealed, except to a few persons in this Church; and a few have received it from Joseph the prophet as well as myself. If a woman can find a man holding the keys of the priesthood with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is... there is no need for a bill of divorcement... To recapitulate. First if a man forfeits his covenants with a wife, or wives, becoming unfaithful to his God, and his priesthood, that wife or wives are free from him without a bill of divorcement. Second. If a woman claimes protection at the hands of a man, possessing more power in the priesthood and higher keys, if he is disposed to rescue her and has obtained the consent of her husband to make her his wife he can do so without a bill of divorcement.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, “A Few Words on Doctrine,” speech at tabernacle, October 8, 1861, see In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, by Todd Compton, p. 17

http://www.ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/Mormon/polygamy.html

[_beastie]

Joseph Smith occasionally taught some sound concepts. Here is one, from D&C 121:

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

Knowing how human beings operate, there can be no doubt the polygamy was used to control others.

[_Jason Bourne]

“The Second Way in which a wife can be separated from her husband, while he continues to be faithful to his God and his priesthood, I have not revealed, except to a few persons in this Church; and a few have received it from Joseph the prophet as well as myself. If a woman can find a man holding the keys of the priesthood with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is... there is no need for a bill of divorcement... To recapitulate. First if a man forfeits his covenants with a wife, or wives, becoming unfaithful to his God, and his priesthood, that wife or wives are free from him without a bill of divorcement. Second. If a woman claimes protection at the hands of a man, possessing more power in the priesthood and higher keys, if he is disposed to rescue her and has obtained the consent of her husband to make her his wife he can do so without a bill of divorcement.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, “A Few Words on Doctrine,” speech at tabernacle, October 8, 1861, see In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, by Todd Compton, p. 17

Is this not pretty much what BY did with Zina Diantha Hunington Jacobs and poor Henry Jacobs?

[_Gazelam]

D&C 121:34-41

If this were ever the case, that man is damned.

[_beastie]

Is this not pretty much what BY did with Zina Diantha Hunington Jacobs and poor Henry Jacobs?

It is exactly what he did, and poor Henry was so browbeaten that he participated in the ceremony that took his wife and children from him.

You know, that is what is especially cruel about it - it's not just that these men could lose their wives, but their CHILDREN. What kind of sick god would ever do that?

D&C 121:34-41

If this were ever the case, that man is damned.

I'd say that he condemned quite a few of the leaders of the LDS church with that statement, including himself.

[_KimberlyAnn]

“Kimball always kept an eye out for romance. ‘Brethren,’ he instructed some departing missionaries, ‘I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake.”

- The Lion of the Lord, by Stanley P. Hirshon, pp. 129-130

“The Second Way in which a wife can be separated from her husband, while he continues to be faithful to his God and his priesthood, I have not revealed, except to a few persons in this Church; and a few have received it from Joseph the prophet as well as myself. If a woman can find a man holding the keys of the priesthood with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is... there is no need for a bill of divorcement... To recapitulate. First if a man forfeits his covenants with a wife, or wives, becoming unfaithful to his God, and his priesthood, that wife or wives are free from him without a bill of divorcement. Second. If a woman claimes protection at the hands of a man, possessing more power in the priesthood and higher keys, if he is disposed to rescue her and has obtained the consent of her husband to make her his wife he can do so without a bill of divorcement.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, “A Few Words on Doctrine,” speech at tabernacle, October 8, 1861, see In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, by Todd Compton, p. 17

http://www.ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/Mormon/polygamy.html

Thank you, Beastie! Those are exactly the quotes I was thinking of!