Mormon Persecution?

[_Bond...James Bond]

Recently while reading over at good ole WE B NUTS I came across this incredibly naïve post by Dale. I'm not really sure what he's trying to say, but I think anyone who has studied history beyond reading the B.C. comic strip should know that any comparison between anti-semitism and anti-mormonism is absolutely foolish. I don't even want to go into how far out there comparing anti-semitism to anti-mormonism is. It makes my hair hurt to attempt to comprehend that line of thinking.

LDS have become the Jew of the modern age. Jews have to put up with with Anti-Semitism. And Mormons have Anti-Mormonism to contend with. Prejudice is prejudice whether it's aimed at the Jewish people, or religious group.

Rather than responding with my little socky friend, I thought I'd ask a few thought provoking (possibly rhetorical) questions to the studio audience.

Do the LDS have a persecution complex?

If so: Is the persecution complex justified?

[_Sethbag]

Yeah, some of them feel persecuted. It's all part of the siege mentality of "us vs. The World", a mentality that a lot other Christians share. Ever read rags like WorldNetDaily? You'll see headlines about Christians being persecuted, discriminated against, etc.

Plus you get Mormons who think that they are being persecuted by anti-mormons. No. The anti-mormons are just telling you that your church isn't true, and you're not listening. It's no different than the LDS missionaries out telling the whole world that their beliefs aren't true, either directly or by implication, and the rest of the world not listening. Are the LDS missionaries out persecuting the whole rest of the world?

Kinda dumb, really. I think just about the only time people really get annoyed with Mormons is when one of them acts all Molly in a mixed crowd of people, trying to stop something they were going to do, or getting all upset because their kid had to read a book with a "bad word" in it for school. I think most of the time, if people have any reaction at all for the Mormons, it's to roll their eyes. Except for the evangelicals, of course, who think Mormons are spawn of Satan. ;-) But the evangelicals have their own little problems with siege mentality.

[_moksha]

For the Mormons who do not frequent religious internet forums, there is probably very little thought given to ever feeling persecuted. Not so for those Mormons who do frequent internet religious forums. The reason? There are quite a few people who devote considerable time to denigrating the Mormon faith. Some of these folks have been doing it for years and it has become a lifestyle choice. I imagine they will continue as long as such forums exist. Technology changes, so these forums might be at some time in the future become akin to vinyl records, but I think these posters will adapt to the newer medium and continue unabated. I suppose it is as valid of lifestyle choice as any other that does not rescue people from burning buildings or cure cancer.

[_Sethbag]

For every Mormon visiting a site where some Mormon critic denigrates their religion, there's a, well, Mormon visiting a site where a critic is denigrating their religion. If they feel bad that their religion is disbelieved by someone on the internet, who is willing to say that, and explain why, then perhaps they (the Mormon) should consider doing something else with their time. If there are people over at MAD who are really upset that some critics exist and say that the church isn't true, well that is a board specifically designed for those kinds of encounters, and if all they want is to hang out with other co-religionists and agree with each other all day, there are forums for that purpose.

[_beastie]

Amen Seth. I have tried to make that point repeatedly about MAD, and this is why I stopped participating there. I think it is a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it, too. Here's how MAD, and its past incarnation FAIR, looks to me:

LDS want to show that they can successfully refute "anti-mormon" arguments. People who have devoted a lot of time to reading and responding to these arguments, ie, apologists, in particular want to show the LDS masses, ie, the non-apologists, that really smart people have studied these anti-mormon claims and can tell you with academic authority that the anti-mormon claims are not only bunk, but bunk created by non-academic dunces you can safely ignore. So you can feel really good about continuing to believe in Mormonism, despite the criticisms made against it by outsiders. They are not only non-academic dunces who don't know what they're talking about, but they are bigots to boot. It doesn't matter if the lay-mormon doesn't grasp the details of the apologetic argument, what matters is that really smart people with academic training made these arguments and stand by them. This could be called the Nibley Effect. Did most LDS who read or listened to Nibley really have the background knowledge to fairly evaluate his claims that were often based in esoteric, hard to obtain, sources? Of course not. But Nibley was obviously very smart and knew a lot, and he sounded very academic, so he reassured the masses. I actually had a missionary flat out tell me this - that while he didn't understand the specifics, Nibley (and another apologist whose name escapes me) had studied it and still believed it, and they were incredibly smart and educated, so that was good enough for him. I don't believe most members actually would articulate this so clearly, but I do believe it accurately describes an LDS phenomenon.

Now, these apologists want to show their followers "how it's done", how one can successfully refute "anti-mormon" arguments, so some of these folks created a board that would actually allow critics to make their charges so that the apologists could reliably refute them. Kind of like a training ground.

This, in and of itself, would not make MAD an intolerable environment for me. But there is one more essential detail.

So critics are a necessary evil. But they are an evil, this is a point that cannot be avoided. The mythology widely shared by believers on MAD is that any exbeliever who continues to demonstrate enough interest in Mormonism to take the time to participate on a board like MAD is a professional "apostate", not just a normal "leave taker", but a real live apostate who is inspired by a malicious force. Some are too PC to actually name that malicious force, others will freely do so. We all know who the source is.

In other words, critics are entering a situation in which they have already been categorized in an extremely negative fashion. Believers already feel beleaguered because of the difficulty of the very situation they deliberately constructed, and they feel beleaguered and frustrated due to the fact that many critics can actually demonstrate that the apologetic arguments are not as strong as their proponents insist. Believers may think I am being a bigot when I state the following, but it is just the truth, obvious to anyone but a believer: LDS believers have the harder case to argue. They are trying to defend several things that most human beings would find extremely difficult to defend. Really, who has the easier job? Someone criticizing Joseph Smith's polyandry or someone defending it?

So they're already frustrated by the fact that they have the harder job to begin with. So combine that frustration with the widely shared myth that critics are morally flawed individuals inspired by a malicious source, and you end up with a situation in which there is a lot of mean-spirited, personal "side commentary" inserted into the apologetics, most of which is ignored or actually encouraged by moderators. Yet, when critics respond in kind, they are smacked. More evidence of their evil nature.

I admit it is difficult for me to understand how some of these worst offenders continually feel good about their participation at MAD. I suppose constructing the "we're being persecuted by evil bigots and it's our job to fight back" mythology is how they do it.

In regards to the larger question, certainly there are some places in which LDS often have to confront prejudices, particularly in areas dominated by EVs. But to compare any of this with the real persecution early LDS suffered is a delusion of grandeur. Moreover, atheists, as a group, suffer the same prejudices in a far more wide-spread fashion. So if persecution and prejudice is a sign of possessing the truth, then atheism is it, folks. ;)

[_Trinity]

I know quite a few in real life Mormons who absolutely get off on the perception they are persecuted. They most enjoy talking about the early era of the church where those bad people set fire to homes and tarred and feathered Joseph. To them, opposition to church is proof the church is true. They absolutely thrive on the us vs them mentality and there's more than just a few who would love to have a big old fight so they could prove they are stripling warriors.

This mentality is most often found in Mormons who have lots of testosterone.

[_dartagnan]

Yes, Mormons feel persecuted. But if you put it into perspective, LDS persecution is dwarfed when compared to other minorities who choose not to bask in the victimhood complex. In LDS thought, the persecution is just more evidence that the gospel is true, so they try to Trump it up as much as possible. Muslims today are doing the same flippin thing, pretending they are a relatively persecuted group when the facts suggest otherwise.

One of the things that first ticked me off about FAIR many years ago was Allen Wyatt's propensity to go to events and take photos of protesters who were holding up placards. He would take a dozen or so photos and post them on the FAIR website as if this constituted some kind of worthwhile "update" to the apologetic literature.

There is a reason the brunt of its apologetics is directed towards people like Ed Decker, Walter Martin, McKeever and a few other Evangelicals like them. The fact that these people appear intolerant provides the LDS apologist with half of the substance he needs to counter them. This is why they put so much time into this silly DVD response. There is nothing new here. The real critical issues have been ignored for who knows (Book of Abraham) yet FAIR likes to repeat themselves over these stupid hermenuetical arguments with Evangelical counter-cultists.

[_Seven]

The responses of TBM family that received the DVD on Joseph Smith are evidence of the persecution attitude. Many have stated that the DVD "just strengthens my testimony." It validates in their mind the LDS teachings that Satan is fighting the true church and that other religions feel threatened by the one of the "fastest growing religions."

Mormons thrive on the idea that they are being persecuted. Dale comparing it to anti sementism is no surprise. I have heard the comparison made all the time by chapel Mormons. I recall hearing many members through my time in the church comment on how sad it is that the persecution of the Jews gets all the attention, but the media never focuses on the persecution of Mormons.

I agree with Beastie.

Moreover, atheists, as a group, suffer the same prejudices in a far more wide-spread fashion. So if persecution and prejudice is a sign of possessing the truth, then atheism is it, folks. ;)

I had a TBM relative say to me "I don't even try converting people to my religion anymore. I'm just happy if they believe in Christ at all these days." I asked her why in the world that makes any difference to their character?

LDS believers have the harder case to argue. They are trying to defend several things that most human beings would find extremely difficult to defend. Really, who has the easier job? Someone criticizing Joseph Smith's polyandry or someone defending it?

They always fall back on "persecution" or "Satan" if they get stuck in an argument where they have to defend behavior they would condemn of anybody else. It happens anytime I try disucssing church history and especially polygamy with believers.

[_Gazelam]

I personally don't feel persecuted. I don't know anyone who is. I live in vegas, which is a Mormon haven of sorts, with lots of members here.

I can't say how Mormons are treated in communities where they are a minority. Its hard to say when religion in general is becoming less important in many peoples lives it seems. At least from a media perspective.

The Church was persecuted to the point of war on at least two occasions, but that was long ago.

The Church has also had a hard time in the southern states:
"Elder J. Golden Kimball was in the mission office in Chattanooga, Tennessee when word came that three elders had been killed by a mob while conducting a service on Sunday, August 10, 1884. According to Kimball, Roberts decided to retrieve the bodies of the missionaries to return them to their families in Utah. Given the dangerous situation, Elder Kimball tried to get President Roberts to let him make the journey. But Roberts insisted on going, disguising himself as a farm laborer. With local assistance, he went to the site and recovered the bodies. The party took a wrong road on the way back to the railroad station. Roberts later stated that the error may have saved his life, as a mob was waiting for him on the correct road."

I'm sure theres thousands of other stories that could be shared regarding persecution. And I doubt it helps the feelings of persecution when they have all of the protesters out in force at each general conference. The light of Christ is always persecuted in some form or another. I remember on my mission going way out into the wilderness to a cliff wall that early preachers of the protestant movement preached from. If they were discovered they woudl have been killed by the Catholics.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Moreover, atheists, as a group, suffer the same prejudices in a far more wide-spread fashion. So if persecution and prejudice is a sign of possessing the truth, then atheism is it, folks. ;)

I would agree atheists catch a lot of crap for rejecting God or not believing in God or however their critics want to define them. They are after all the common enemy of all theists right?