Fanaticism in the LDS church

[Anonymous]

from Wikipedia

Fanaticism is an emotion of being filled with excessive, uncritical zeal, particularly for an extreme religious or political cause, or with an obsessive enthusiasm for a pastime or hobby.

According to philosopher George Santayana, "Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim"; according to Winston Churchill, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject".

The difference between a fan and a fanatic is that while both have an overwhelming liking or interest in a given subject, behaviour of a fanatic will be viewed as violating prevailing social norms, while that of a fan will not violate those norms (although is usually considered unusual).

A fanatic differs from a crank in that the latter term is typically associated with a position or opinion which is so far from the norm as to appear ludicrous and/or provably wrong, while the subject of the fanatic's obsession may well be "normal", with only the scale of involvement being abnormally disproportionate.

I had a recent experience with a fanatical LDS member. It is the first time I have personally discussed Mormonism with somebody who believes in ALL the teachings of the Prophets, including racism, polygamy required for exaltation, Adam God, blood atonement, etc.

It is more disturbing than anything I have come across in apologetics, but it was the first time to discuss LDS doctrine with a member who actually understands the Mormon gospel they have embraced. I was amazed and sickened at the same time. Apologists on MAD seem like a comfort all of a sudden.

As a fanatical member, she professed to do ANYTHING the Prophet commands, and believes all the Prophets teachings are from the Lord. All policy, changes in policy, changes to ordinances, white washing of history, interviews, etc. are all from the Lord to this person. She has never been in the world of apologetics, never been on the internet, but suprising to me, knew all of the troubling history and embrace it as God's command. The Prophets are not perfect to her, but their teachings are. Through the spirit, visions, etc. she KNOWS these doctrines and all teachings in the Journal of Discourses are true and would give her life for them. When I suggested that many of them were "opinion" now and the only LDS doctrine is canon according to apologists, she spoke with such force and conviction that none of those teachings were opinion.
Things that are not recorded in the scriptures she has seen through the spirit. Ex: although there is no recorded polygamist Prophet in the Book of Mormon, she KNOWS that they practiced it & the Lord left it out for a reason. Also, in the Bible, there is no indication the polygamy was ever required for exaltation, but she believes it's there if I let the spirit speak to me. God having sex with Mary? "sacred and true."
Jesus and God as polygamists? The spirit confirms it to her.

All I can say is that I am very freaked out and traumatized by the discussion we had. She claimed to have felt the spirit the whole discussion, yet I felt a dark scared feeling. I had no idea this person held these beliefs. She seemed like a typical LDS member all the years I have know her. What amazed me was her lack of any research on any of these topics, but "the spirit" taught her these doctrines. Her knowledge of history was unbelievable for a person who doesn't read anything but scriptures and church approved materials.

I am in a difficult position now. This is a relative, and one I have been close to. I am very troubled by what this person shared with me and feel very uncomfortable to be around her now. Many things were said to me that were offensive and cruel. (about my inactivity and struggle with doctrine.) Most of the discussion revolved around her analyzing every part of my testimony, all of my experiences, my personality, etc. so she could figure out why I haven't felt the spirit speak to me of the truth of these teachings. One of the most hurtful things said to me was that it's my fault I didn't know that plural marriage was a part of the plan for exaltation before I took out temple covenants. She couldn't believe I would make covenants without understanding the doctrines of the church. I was chastised for it. I was also given indirect statements that my DH would have a right to divorce me for my beliefs now. (keep in mind I am not an apostate yet, just open minded about the possiblity that the church is false and disillusioned with it all) She is unable to see that my marriage could survive this, or the love for my children could be the same now with out the LDS gospel. In other words, this is spiritual infedility to her and most of the family, so shame on me for struggling and going inactive!

Have any of you had to deal with this situation in a family or with friends when the person is a fanatic? I am unsure of how to handle this as I try to repair our relationship and defend myself.

It's been a very painful week for me since this occured and unlike anything I have had to deal with yet.

[_Runtu]

Yes, I've dealt with fanatical family members. The best I've been able to do is just to avoid the subject as much as possible. But it keeps coming up, and I have had to put some distance between myself and some family members. Sad, but sometimes you have to do that to maintain any kind of relationship at all.

And yes, it is amazing what some people will believe.

[_Yong Xi]

This sounds like the profile of Charity at MADB.

[_beastie]

I would suggest that the only way to deal with it is to gently tell her that this topic is "out of bounds" from now on.

My family isn't fanatical by any means, but we still have to treat the entire topic as taboo. We just don't discuss it. Yes, that does move your relationship to a more restricted level, but if you want to maintain it at all, it may be your only choice.

It may take some gentle but firm "no's" on your part before she gets the idea.

Of course she's going to pick you apart to see what YOU did wrong. That's the True Believer - they do it on MAD, too. Several times over the past few years I've participated on internet boards, I've shared that the main trigger to my loss of faith was that God never would confirm to me, through prayer, that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that the church was "true". I believed in the Book of Mormon because God did answer that prayer, but not the others, so eventually I stopped trying to force myself to believe. I've had that picked apart every single time I've shared it. Believers would prefer to believe God is some obsessive compulsive control freak who won't answer a sincere person unless they follow certain "mother may I" rules, than be forced to consider that their beliefs may be incorrect. The funniest reply I got on that was Charity's, who actually maintained I asked God TOO MANY TIMES, and should have asked JUST ONCE and then lived my life AS IF IT WERE TRUE, and eventually he would answer me. Unbelievable.

But it's their only option - something is wrong with you. It has to be.

What's funny is that if your friend registered at MAD and started posting, they'd accuse her of being an exmormon troll.

[_moksha]

If you value her friendship, simply don't talk to her about it anymore. When a person is intractable there is no use arguing and there really is no long term satisfaction is winning an argument, especially if it is one that comes at a high cost. Just be aware that there are a number of people like that and that the internet is always a good source for finding more reasonable people.

[_moksha]

The funniest reply I got on that was Charity's, who actually maintained I asked God TOO MANY TIMES, and should have asked JUST ONCE and then lived my life AS IF IT WERE TRUE, and eventually he would answer me.

As the late great Kurt Vonnegut said, we become what we pretend to be.

[_Seven]

quote="beastie"]

Of course she's going to pick you apart to see what YOU did wrong. That's the True Believer - they do it on MAD, too.

I have come to accept and prepare myself for it from TBMs but her pshyco analysis of every little thing left me feeling violated. It went way to far. I was far too open minded in respecting her experiences while she was unable to open her mind even a smidge into mine.

Several times over the past few years I've participated on internet boards, I've shared that the main trigger to my loss of faith was that God never would confirm to me, through prayer, that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that the church was "true". I believed in the Book of Mormon because God did answer that prayer, but not the others, so eventually I stopped trying to force myself to believe. I've had that picked apart every single time I've shared it. Believers would prefer to believe God is some obsessive compulsive control freak who won't answer a sincere person unless they follow certain "mother may I" rules, than be forced to consider that their beliefs may be incorrect.

The funniest reply I got on that was Charity's, who actually maintained I asked God TOO MANY TIMES, and should have asked JUST ONCE and then lived my life AS IF IT WERE TRUE, and eventually he would answer me. Unbelievable.

I also was told I didn't ask correctly, humbly enough, etc. I have never been more humble in my life as when I broke down all barriers of morality and good conscience to accept the principle of plural marriage as Godly. My answer was darkness, sickness, and nothing remotely close to peace. She said it was Satan giving me these feelings! Unbelievable.
Yet, no other Christian principles ever give me these feelings, even ones that are hard to live. Polyandry is a true principle to her because of the pre existence. Those women belong to Joseph and he had God's authority to take them.

I shared with her that the only peace I have had since learning "the meat" came when I let go of my beliefs that the LDS church holds all truth. When I accepted that Prophets can speak as man and that revelations can come from God, man, or Satan, I felt a weight lifted from my shoulders. It was also very scary at the same time, because I knew the consequences of this answer to my prayer. I have tried to make sense of my beliefs since then and had to rebuild my relationship with God and Jesus Christ. Of course, my answers to prayer didn't come from the spirit, but hers do.

After learning Joseph Smith's history, I found my testimony of all beliefs in God were shattered. Joseph was directly linked to all my beliefs in Jesus Christ and God so that has been a very tough challenge for me even now.
Is this more of a problem for BIC members than converts? I had always had an all or nothing testimony-if the church wasn't true, then nothing was.

But it's their only option - something is wrong with you. It has to be.

I have considered taking this approach with her when she claims revelations of the spirit on immoral behavior of Joseph Smith and abominable teachings. Should I analyze her personality, past, and present behavior to make sense of why Satan has deceived her into believing evil is good and good is evil?

What's funny is that if your friend registered at MAD and started posting, they'd accuse her of being an exmormon troll.

Very true.

The interesting thing is, she felt like the spirit spoke to us both during the discussions and has some feeling that it was a special experience. I didn't want to hurt her feelings and didn't say this, but I honestly felt nothing but shock and sickness. It made me feel more like running from the church than toward it.

The advice so far has been to avoid discussing religion with her from now on, and I think that's the only option I have with most TBM family. I do however feel that I must address some of the hurtful things she twisted and tried to use against me. I can't see myself having a relationship with her ever again if I don't. It may be a waste of energy and time, but do you think she should know how hurtful it was to judge my life in this way?

[_Seven]

I don't know the details of her past (she's related by marriage), but I have had some family share with me that she had been involved in some kind of Satanic cultish type activity before converting to the church. I would never bring up her past to her, but I find it interesting that she is the one fanatic in the family. There were moments in our discussions where I could sense she wanted to cast demons out of me in the name of Jesus.

[_Seven]

The funniest reply I got on that was Charity's, who actually maintained I asked God TOO MANY TIMES, and should have asked JUST ONCE and then lived my life AS IF IT WERE TRUE, and eventually he would answer me.

As the late great Kurt Vonnegut said, we become what we pretend to be.

Love this. I had tried this as an acitve believer when I desired to have the sure knowledge that I perceived other LDS to have. It was pretending.

The LDS teaching that we must bear testimony to receive one never felt honest to me. I have often wondered how many members are saying they KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt something but their witness is no greater than mine? I was never one of those to profess something as a sure knowledge because I didn't have it. I had strong feelings that the church was true based on the peace of living the gospel, white washed history, and my love for Jesus Christ.

I prefer the scripture in Ether that goes something like "after the trial of your faith comes the witness."

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

My relatives aren't fanatical in the sense of being into old doctrines, but they are extremely devout. My little niece surprised me when she bore her testimony ... the situation was that she came into the middle of a conversation and mistook what I was saying as attack and went into automatic defense mode (it had been quite a civil conversation, actually) ... it was about that "conditional love" talk by Nelson (?) and a copy was sitting on the counter. She thumped her finger dramatically on the paper and announced that Heavenly Father had helped Elder Nelson (I think) to write that talk and it was all true and above criticism (she knew that with every fiber of her being because it was obviously printed out from LDS.org, not because she had any idea or opinion of the content of the talk). Then she launched inter her testimony, which was amazing. It was perfectly delivered with all the earnestness and sincerity and fervor of youth, and yet so clichéd and canned ... had the elements of every testimony I've heard over the past 40 some years. I had no idea she had it in her! It was a masterpiece, really. Then the rest of them stood there and looked at me like if that didn't touch my cold hard heart nothing would, but impressed as I was with her it did absolutely nothing to convince me of the truthfulness of the gospel. Now she's on a mission. If she were a boy, she'd no doubt be an AP by now.

So, I know how this kind of thing can make you feel like you're in the twilight zone, although your cousin is unfortunately way further over the deep end. The only thing I know to do is just remind myself that "we are all exactly where we are supposed to be."