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While watching the PBS documentary on Mormons it seemed every time I heard Terry Givens who by the way I know nothing about, invariably I'd think he was talking nonsense.

As an example in the segment on church excommunication this is what he had to say.

"I think it is important to point out that the church never makes public the transcripts of the church disciplanary proceedings. They never make press statements and so in every case which an intellectual has been excommunicated from the church the public is exposed to only 1/2 of the story and I don't think it is ever possible to come to a fair and just conclusion when we have 1/2 the story."

In other words he appears to be discrediting or convicting those who are excommunicated, inferring that one shouldn't sympathize with them and their story due to lack of information. Meanwhile he doesn't blame the church for that very lack of information.

marg wrote:While watching the PBS documentary on Mormons it seemed every time I heard Terry Givens who by the way I know nothing about, invariably I'd think he was talking nonsense.

As an example in the segment on church excommunication this is what he had to say.

"I think it is important to point out that the church never makes public the transcripts of the church disciplanary proceedings. They never make press statements and so in every case which an intellectual has been excommunicated from the church the public is exposed to only 1/2 of the story and I don't think it is ever possible to come to a fair and just conclusion when we have 1/2 the story."

In other words he appears to be discrediting or convicting those who are excommunicated, inferring that one shouldn't sympathize with them and their story due to lack of information. Meanwhile he doesn't blame the church for that very lack of information.

That's always been the party line: "We'd tell you the real reason Sister Toscano was excommunicated, but we can't violate her privacy." Pretty disgusting, and I am really dismayed that Givens pulled that stunt.

I loved how she explained how they tried to shake her hand and make nice after they just kicked her in the face.

Runtu wrote:
That's always been the party line: "We'd tell you the real reason Sister Toscano was excommunicated, but we can't violate her privacy." Pretty disgusting, and I am really dismayed that Givens pulled that stunt.

That part really bothered me as well. Smear the person who questions authority is the tactic used by the church since it started.

Givens voice and poetic way of speaking creeped me out for some reason.

I don't think it's an unfair statement. The only people who know the story are those involved in the actual proceedings. This COULD give the accused carte blanche to say whatever they want without correction. To say they always lie would be extreme.

The only option is to release the minutes of the proceedings to the Press and allow Church Leaders to give interviews and discuss what happened. I don't think anyone wants that.

The Nehor wrote:I don't think it's an unfair statement. The only people who know the story are those involved in the actual proceedings. This COULD give the accused carte blanche to say whatever they want without correction. To say they always lie would be extreme.

But that's always the hint, Nehor. Don't listen to them because they're the guilty ones. We'd tell you the truth, but we can't.

The only option is to release the minutes of the proceedings to the Press and allow Church Leaders to give interviews and discuss what happened. I don't think anyone wants that.

I would imagine that there are several people out there who would be thrilled to have the minutes available.

It is an unfair statement, Nehor, unless one points out that the reason "we" only have half the story isn't the "apostate's" fault but the church's. The insinuation is that there is something out there that is so bad it has to be kept under wraps.

Lots of people WOULD like access to their transcripts and I think it may actually be possible for people to get them (you may have to know someone with pull and it probably take a long time to get people to comply, as well.)

Frankly Terryl Givens was the most disturbing figure on the whole four hours to me.

Bruce KKK Packard and Dallin Oaks are loathsome, but its a grotesquerie I'm familiar with, one which makes it malign intent clear.

Givens was much more repellent to me because his approach is akin to smearing the lens with vaseline. Everything has to covered in sappy, "poetic," breathless, wonder...

Runtu wrote:

The Nehor wrote:I don't think it's an unfair statement. The only people who know the story are those involved in the actual proceedings. This COULD give the accused carte blanche to say whatever they want without correction. To say they always lie would be extreme.

But that's always the hint, Nehor. Don't listen to them because they're the guilty ones. We'd tell you the truth, but we can't.

The only option is to release the minutes of the proceedings to the Press and allow Church Leaders to give interviews and discuss what happened. I don't think anyone wants that.

I would imagine that there are several people out there who would be thrilled to have the minutes available.

I don't doubt that some would like them released but it would be a relative handful.

The speaker also has their hands tied. They can't discuss what happened. I might have said the same thing if asked that question with no malice intended. The best option is to keep silent but then the accused can cry out freely in victory and our silence is seen as tacit acceptance of whatever they say. All I can say is I'm glad I've never had to deal with those situations.

Prof. Givens can claim that the Church never reveals its side of the story, but the fact of the matter is that people talk. (Or 'gossip'?) The information often gets leaked, one way or the other, and so once again we find institutionalized Church secrecy causing yet another problem.