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Fortigurn and I had a nice conversation going on in the "Bokavoy on the warpath" thread. Starting on page 10 with my Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:32 pm post and going to His post on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:44 pm on page 11. I guess I dropped the ball and never responded, so I'd like to pick up the conversation again.

For those who would like to be brought up to speed heres the link to the former posts:http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=1591&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180

What is at question here is the roles of the Father and the Son.

The Father is the Father of the spirits of all men, includeing Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 12:9; Numbers 16:22) and is thus the ultimate object of our worship. The Father is the Father because he gave us all life or rather provided a spiritual birth for each of us.

Jesus Christ is Father by virtue of his role as Creator. "While yet in the premortal existence jehovah advanced and progressed until he became like unto God. Under the direction of the Father he became the Creator of worlds without number, and thus was himself Lord Omnipotent." (Bruce R. McConkie, "The Mystery of Godliness," p.52)

Speaking to Moses God said:
31......For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
(Moses 1:31-33; compare Hebrews 1:1-3)

When Christ arrived to the Nephites he announced himself this way:
15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name. (3 Nephi 9:15)


Christ is also the Father through spiritual rebirth. Those who reject the Fall and shake off their fallen and carnal nature, and accept a state of righteousness through strength of will and acceptance of the gospel become the adopted sons and daughters of Christ by adoption.

"That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory"; (Moses 6:59)

Jesus Christ becomes the Covenant Father of all who accept him and live the terms and conditions of the new and everlasting covenant. (D&C 66:2, 133:57)

As it was with the physical formation of the heavens and the earth, so it is in regard to the human character and personality: Christ is the Father of creation, and through applying his atoneing blood men and women become "new creations," new creatures of Christ through the medium of the Holy Ghost (see Mosiah 5:1-7; 15:11-12; 27:25-26). (Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon vol.2. p.227, Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet

Christ is also Father by Divine Investiture of Authority. Christ explained when he was upon the Earth that "I am come in my Fathers name" (John 5:43). He acted and spoke on behalf of his Father. He proclaimed "my Doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me" (John 7:16) Christ is therefore known as Father "by divine investiture of authority the Father has placed his name upon the Son, has given him his own power and authority, and has authorized him to speak in the first person as though he were the original or primal Father" (Promised Messiah, p.63)

President Joseph Fielding Smith helps us understand this:

All revelation since the Fall has come through Jesus Christ, who is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. In all of the scriptures, where God is mentioned and where he has appeared, it was Jehovah.... The Father has never dealt with man directly and personally since the Fall, and he has never appeared except to introduce and bear record of the Son." (Doctrines of Salvation 1:27)

There are great examples of this found in the Doctrine and Covenants, occasions when the Lord chooses to speak as both the Father and the Son.

D&C 29:1
"Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I Am, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins;"

Later in vs 42 though
"But, behold, I say unto you that I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son."


In section 49 we see this in reverse
"5 Thus saith the Lord; for I am God, and have sent mine Only Begotten Son into the world for the redemption of the world, and have decreed that he that receiveth him shall be saved, and he that receiveth him not shall be damned—"

and later
" 28 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, and I come quickly. Even so. Amen."

In this dramatic way God illustrates the unity of the Godhead. These two have the same mind and thoughts and are perfectly united.

Bruce R. McConkie states

How is the Lord our Father? It is because of the atonement, because he received power from his Father to do that which is infinate and eternal. This is a matter of his Eternal Parent investing him with power from on high so that he becomes the Father because he exercises the power of the Eternal Being" (Promised Messiah, p.371)

Gaz

'Sup Gaz. I'll post a short tidbit of thoughts before I get back to work, last day of school, whoopee!!!

The whole trinity/godhead thing is very much a mystery, isn't it? Or is it that we've made it so freaking confusing that no one wants to deal with it anymore?

I agree that God the Father is our spiritual father because he gave us life. And I agree that Christ is our Father by adoption of spiritual rebirth. However, many have differing opinions on just what spiritual rebirth constitutes. Putting on righteousness so to speak, I believe is a component, but my pastor said a very interesting thing this past week. He said there were a whole bunch of people in churches all over the world, right now, who were not saved. And simply by virtue of the fact that Christianity for them has been whittled down to simply going through the motions. And yet people wonder why the church itself is being (in some people's eyes, definitely not mine) eaten away by postmodern thought. We're tired of the same old thing. What does it truly mean to "put on righteousness". Is this something that can easily be seen by the human eye?

And since we're talking about the godhead/trinity, we can't forget our buddy the Holy Spirit. There is no godhead, no trinity without Him. There are those who believe that only the three components together, the Father, the Son, AND the Holy Spirit can make one God. What think ye?

I'll read up on the thread later tonight.

I still need to find the scripture where the Holy Ghost changes person like the examples above. I just read it a few weeks ago, but I can't remember where. The Holy Ghost is God, the same as the Father and the Son. He is actually the one that we have the most contact with, since he is the one who actually is sent by the Father to answer our prayers and to guide and inspire us.

In regards to what your pastor was speaking of, I think this might have more to do with gainign an understanding of how faith and works work together to change the human spirit and help a person draw closer to God.

I have a birthday party to get to, so I'll post more on this later

thanks

Gaz