Who has read both Brodie and Bushman?

[_SatanWasSetUp]

I read "No Man Knows My History" but haven't bothered to read Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling." I'm interested to know how similar they are. Since Brodie's work has been considered anti-mormon literature and she was exed for it, and Bushman is a TBM and he set out to write the definitive biography on Joseph Smith, I'm curious how close the two works are to one another.

[_Sam Harris]

I'm like you, I read Brodie, but passed Bushman when it sat on my library shelves. I don't understand how Brodie can be considered to be anti-mormon, the flavor of her book at times seemed to be one of admiration of Joseph Smith. So she told the truth, how is telling the truth anti-mormon?

Don't answer that.

[_aussieguy55]

I have read Brodie's biography several times and am currently reading Bushman's book. Bushman is easy to read, cites both postive and negative sources except in one area I noticed to do with the 1820 revival. When I was in the LDS church I was subcribing to Dialogue. I had read some material on the First Vision. I asked an American couple if they had heard any comments about the attitudes of the GAs to the independent journal Dialogue. They mentioned some GA was not happy about a paper by a Prebyterian pastor which accompained by a response from an LDS historian was no answered effectively. This I found out later after purchasing a back issue of Dialogue (Spring, 1969) was by Rev Wesley Walters (Inventing Mormonism, Signature) and Richard Bushman (responded to Walters). I could not find in the section on Sources Cited as well as notes to chapter 2 any mention of these papers. Interesting.

[_Gazelam]

One funny thing I heard regarding Brodies book (which I haven't yet read, but almost purchased two weeks ago at a used book store) is that because there were so many journal entries regarding Josephs Smiths face shineing when the spirit was upon him ala Moses she couldent ignore it, so she wrote it off as Joseph Smith suffering from Jaundice! Ha Ha.

Rough Stone Rolling was very good I thought. It doesent really pull any punches and lists all the things people tend to get bunched up about.

[_Runtu]

One funny thing I heard regarding Brodies book (which I haven't yet read, but almost purchased two weeks ago at a used book store) is that because there were so many journal entries regarding Josephs Smiths face shineing when the spirit was upon him ala Moses she couldent ignore it, so she wrote it off as Joseph Smith suffering from Jaundice! Ha Ha.

Rough Stone Rolling was very good I thought. It doesent really pull any punches and lists all the things people tend to get bunched up about.

I've read both. I like Brodie's book a lot, though the psychological approach can be distracting and annoying. Rereading it post-Mormonism is a revelation. Joseph Smith actually comes across as a human being. Bushman's book is readable and does go a lot farther than any other LDS book in dealing with some of the issues, but it does in fact pull a lot of punches. One example that still sticks with me is how Bushman describes Joseph Smith's approaching Heber and Vilate Kimball for their 14 year old daughter as somewhat "old-fashioned," as if he were merely a suitor asking for a girl's hand in marriage. To me, that was an unconscionable distortion of the facts, particularly when you read Helen Kimball's account of how it happened.

Ultimately, Bushman's book is not bad, from a believing perspective, but it tends to gloss over a lot. And from a nonreligious perspective, I would say he doesn't do a good job of presenting Joseph Smith the man. Rather, we get Joseph Smith the series of actions. Does that make sense?

[_Blixa]

Gaz:

One funny thing I heard regarding Brodies book (which I haven't yet read, but almost purchased two weeks ago at a used book store) is that because there were so many journal entries regarding Josephs Smiths face shineing when the spirit was upon him ala Moses she couldent ignore it, so she wrote it off as Joseph Smith suffering from Jaundice! Ha Ha.

Who told you that, Gaz? It's not true.

I probably should read Bushman, but after reading interviews with him as well as some of the things he wrote when "on tour" to promote it (some journal entries that were published as a small book by I forget which small Mormon press. They had a few excerpts on their website), I just couldn't bring myself to.

[_Runtu]

Gaz:

One funny thing I heard regarding Brodies book (which I haven't yet read, but almost purchased two weeks ago at a used book store) is that because there were so many journal entries regarding Josephs Smiths face shineing when the spirit was upon him ala Moses she couldent ignore it, so she wrote it off as Joseph Smith suffering from Jaundice! Ha Ha.

Who told you that, Gaz? It's not true.

I probably should read Bushman, but after reading interviews with him as well as some of the things he wrote when "on tour" to promote it (some journal entries that were published as a small book by I forget which small Mormon press. They had a few excerpts on their website), I just couldn't bring myself to.

Yep, I've read Brodie more than once and never read that particular statement. Probably just another one of those rumors started to keep people from reading that wicked book.

[_Yoda]

Do you think that Fawn Brodie would be excommunicated now if she wrote the same book? It seems like the Church as a whole was a lot harder on dissenting views than they are now in that regard. Frankly, I think that if Bushman and Compton had published their books back in the early 80's, they would be excommunicated as well.

I also wonder if they were harder on Ms. Brodie because she was a woman. It would be interesting to see if they would be harder on a woman publishing a book like Compton's or Bushman's, even with the "TBM" spin they have managed to maintain.

Just food for thought.

[_Runtu]

Do you think that Fawn Brodie would be excommunicated now if she wrote the same book? It seems like the Church as a whole was a lot harder on dissenting views than they are now in that regard. Frankly, I think that if Bushman and Compton had published their books back in the early 80's, they would be excommunicated as well.

I also wonder if they were harder on Ms. Brodie because she was a woman. It would be interesting to see if they would be harder on a woman publishing a book like Compton's or Bushman's, even with the "TBM" spin they have managed to maintain.

Just food for thought.

I think she'd probably still be exed today. Her book is an unflinching look at Joseph Smith, meaning that the leadership would see it as "anti-Mormon." Now way would she survive in the church, even if she wanted to. Though given Grant Palmer's experience, anything is possible.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Do you think that Fawn Brodie would be excommunicated now if she wrote the same book? It seems like the Church as a whole was a lot harder on dissenting views than they are now in that regard. Frankly, I think that if Bushman and Compton had published their books back in the early 80's, they would be excommunicated as well.

I also wonder if they were harder on Ms. Brodie because she was a woman. It would be interesting to see if they would be harder on a woman publishing a book like Compton's or Bushman's, even with the "TBM" spin they have managed to maintain.

Just food for thought.

It's hard to predict the actions of a church 50 years behind the times.....but I think the Church leaders are starting to realize this technology stuff is here to stay and that anything like Brodie's excommunication (or the September Six excommunications) really smells like punishing someone for expressing their opinions....which is just downwind of censorship. These things can be trumpeted to a wide audience on the Internet, and the church is going to have to realize that they're going to have to let some intellectual dissent slide....lest they look totalitarian and oppressive (and the Church loves to protect its image). The Information Age makes religion a whole new ball game, and the Church is batting with limp noodles.