TBMs and MMM

[_beastie]

Why do LDS believers protest so heartily against the idea of Brigham Young's complicity in MMM?

Let's say the evidence was incontrovertible, and BY really was involved in the planning of MMM, not just the cover up. Based on their past history, TBMs would just chalk it up to cultural influence and point to all the bad behavior of Biblical prophets to prove that God doesn't care too much about the characters of his vessels.

[_guy sajer]

Why do LDS believers protest so heartily against the idea of Brigham Young's complicity in MMM?

Let's say the evidence was incontrovertible, and BY really was involved in the planning of MMM, not just the cover up. Based on their past history, TBMs would just chalk it up to cultural influence and point to all the bad behavior of Biblical prophets to prove that God doesn't care too much about the characters of his vessels.

Given that John D. Lee was the only one charged and punished for the MMM, it follows that there was a indeed a coverup, and it's hard to imagine that BY was not up to his eyeballs in this coverup.

So, even if BY is absolved of responsiblity for the MMM, his complicity in the coverup alone marks him as an immoral man, which further disqualifies him from his lofty prophetic status he claimed for himself and which his modern-day followers claim for him.

Unless we are prepared to believe, that is, that God chooses as his one and only mouthpiece an immoral, lying sleazebag.

[_skippy the dead]

Unless we are prepared to believe, that is, that God chooses as his one and only mouthpiece an immoral, lying sleazebag.

I am definitely not prepared to believe this. However, I have seen many far too many defenses of human weaknesses in the early leaders with excuses that "it's the message, not the messenger", or "none of us are without sin, we cannot expect more from our leaders", or "[insert name of old testament prophet] did [insert some bad thing], too" and similar BS.

For me, the immoral actions of the early leaders makes the authenticity of the religion a hard sell.

[_beastie]

Well, sure, exmormons do tend to believe that God would require a certain level of worthiness on the part of his Mouthpiece. After all, we were certainly taught that our personal worthiness had a great impact on what revelation we could receive, as regular old members. So it seems logical to assume God would expect, or need, some level of worthiness from prophets, too.

But over the years in discussing past issues with TBMs, it doesn't seem that they hold the same expectations. The prophets in the Bible sometimes did really horrible stuff, and they were still prophets. So what does it matter if the prophet isn't particularly worthy? That doesn't mean the church isn't true.

At least that is how I have understood their argument.

[_richardMdBorn]

It's a bit like the LDS assertion that prophets err. Try to get them to list ten mistakes GBH has made!

[_ajax18]

In my experience, the chapel Mormons I've spoken with have no problem with BY's complicity in the MMM. The quote was, "BY did what he thought was best, so that's the best we can expect." They chalk it up to the same things you said. But you'd have to really corner them to get them to say this out loud because as Brother Oaks taught, even if the criticism is true, it is wrong to criticize your leaders.

Keep in mind that a chapel Mormon wouldn't think about this for more than two seconds before dismissing it as slander and diabolical, so their chances of having to actually consider all the facts are slim as well. An internet Mormon would have a much more difficult time coming to terms with it.

The MMM doesn't bother me that much honestly. My dad was actually baptized by a descendant of John Lee so that's where I heard the story first. What amazes me are quotes from CicaCampbell over on FAIR that say John Lee was just a murderous low life scum. If that were so, why did David O'McKay bother to reinstate him post mortem?

It was a violent time, without high speed communication. Considering the past persecution of the Mormons, the call for absolute obedience to leaders first your conscience second, it's not surprising that this could have happened. The lesson I take from it, is to follow my own conscience and not necessarily a Church leader. I don't think we can say this even makes the Church all bad. People still believe in the Catholic Church and they have much more and much worse dirty laundry to deal with.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Ask yourself about the supposed storyline that LDS INC is now sticking with. That being, the renegade Mormons sent a question to BY on whether they should kill them all.

Ask yourself this, WHY WOULD A MEMBER of Gods only true church need to ASK their PROPHET if they should grab a nine year old girl by her soft brunette hair, pulling her face back as to expose the soft young skin of her innocent neck and then plunge a knife into this young innocent nine year old girl's neck ripping her throat, voice box, and major blood vessels. Ask yourself why member of the only true religion would need to ask their leader if they should look into the pure innocence of this young girls eyes while they listen to her choking on her own blood and she gasps her last breaths through the torn gapping wound in her neck.

Graphic enough for you? I hope so.

Brigham controlled his followers. Even today.

Now ask yourself, since Brigham KNEW about the Mormons committing these horrific slaughters, then WHY did he LIE about them?

Six years later he told the body of the church at a conference that it was the Indians that did the killing.

Why would he desecrate the memorial built by the US ARMY(all non Mormons by the way) by having it dismantled and the bones scatted, why would he then mock the cross on the memorial which said "Vengeance is mine, thus saith the Lord", by saying "AND I HAVE TAKEN A LITTLE"?

Wake up you mindless Mormon pawns, look at your pathetic selves, still defending that beast of a man.

[_Dr. Shades]

Let's say the evidence was incontrovertible, and BY really was involved in the planning of MMM, not just the cover up. Based on their past history, TBMs would just chalk it up to cultural influence and point to all the bad behavior of Biblical prophets to prove that God doesn't care too much about the characters of his vessels.

Tal Bachman went one step further with his old fictional TBM sock-puppet on FAIR: He said that Brigham was merely following the pattern set by Old Testament prophets, and we should therefore question the truthfulness of our religion only if he didn't order the killings.

For some reason, the TBMs didn't like that. I wonder why?

[_Inconceivable]

PP,

Yes, that puts the MMM into more vivid perspective. I see no righteousness in murdering younglings.

This philosophy is pure evil of hearts corrupted.

Anytime a group of people spend enough time debasing others and exalting themselves, they begin to view the others as less than human. There is no law of God that prohibits the killing of non-humans, so there is no sin - with little or no need for justification.



Personally, with the belief system Lee held to, I would have condemned him to Death by Natural Cause so that his blood could not atone for his gruesome murders. It seems though that his accomplices would have suffered eternal damnation. Does this mean that Brigham Young loved Lee more than the other murderers by insisting his life be taken?

[_The Nehor]

Ask yourself about the supposed storyline that LDS INC is now sticking with. That being, the renegade Mormons sent a question to BY on whether they should kill them all.

Ask yourself this, WHY WOULD A MEMBER of Gods only true church need to ASK their PROPHET if they should grab a nine year old girl by her soft brunette hair, pulling her face back as to expose the soft young skin of her innocent neck and then plunge a knife into this young innocent nine year old girl's neck ripping her throat, voice box, and major blood vessels. Ask yourself why member of the only true religion would need to ask their leader if they should look into the pure innocence of this young girls eyes while they listen to her choking on her own blood and she gasps her last breaths through the torn gapping wound in her neck.

Why? Because the LDS Church has within it many if not the majority of the most contemptible, vilest people on the planet. You statement implies that swearing allegiance to the LDS Church or being active in it's organization should somehow fill someone with virtue. It does not. The Church has always been this way. The Parable of the Wheat and Tares is not about the Church and the World it's about the Church....period. I would balance that by saying it also contains many if not the majority of the best people on the planet. How do people not pick up on this stuff? Brigham Young talked about it, Nibley taught it, the Book of Mormon is continually warning about it.