DiscussMormonism.com

I haven't actually watched the special yet. I plan to watch it on the web in the next few days. But I was just reading from the interview with Elder Holland. I came upon a paragraph that I suppose TBMs will think shows a great deal of love and compassion for people, and a desire to help them, and someone with the "outsider's view" might well regard as kind of sinister and fanatical. Interesting. I'm curious how you guys respond.

Here's the interview with Holland:
http://www.pbs.org/Mormons/interviews/holland.html

Here's the paragraph that really struck me as one which could be taken dramatically differently depending on whether one is inside the church and defending it, or outside the church. All the bolding of text is mine.

In the parable of the lost sheep, any loss is too much of a loss. We would leave 90 and nine to go find one any time we could. That is the savior's example and teaching and ministry. ... We're committed to every single solitary individual that comes to us in this church -- and again, not that others aren't, but we keep records. We want to know who they are and where they are so that when they move, we try to find where they move so that the church can pick them up there. I think many congregations would like to do that. I think many other religious faiths would love to be as systematic about that as we try to be. But we try to really work at it. I don't say that in a self-vaunting way. I'm saying that may count in part for our numbers and activities. I think other parishes or congregations may simply hope that whoever is out there will come. Well, with us we really try to document who's out there and go find them. ...

The TBM can hold this up as them following the Biblical example of Jesus in caring enough for the 1 who was lost to leave the 99 who weren't lost to go look for the 1. The non-TBM may well read things and think Holy Cow, these people will not let you go! You move and don't tell anyone where you're going and just assume you can live somewhere else and simply never go back to the church, but the Mormons will document your movements, track you down, and go visit you whether you want them to or not.

How do you guys read this?

Wow. This is the second great point you've made today.

I think that your prediction is 100% on the money: A sort of Rorschach blot test which reveals where you stand in relation to Mormonism. I definitely think it's quite a bit over-the-top, whereas in my TBM days I'm sure I would've thought it was a sign of true caring and Christlike love.

As Qui-Gon told Anakin right before the podrace, "your focus determines your reality."

Sethbag wrote:How do you guys read this?

That's crazy they come right out and say "we're watching you"....any of you TBM's that think that's a "flu shot" you're getting at church, make sure it's not beeping. Okay?

It's like a little snippet of morgbot programming. From day to day they are just regular folks, but when a leader places a list of names in front of them, they become glassy eyed as the love programming kicks in, and then they start knocking on the doors of people who routinely tell them to go away. Regular folks would take the hint. Heck, even a lot of telemarketers would take the hint. But not the morgbots. They never forget a name. And they're everywhere.

What?

This is no more sinister than an alumni organization knowing where you life. If you want them to stop visiting then tell them or get your name removed. If you move with the specific intention of getting away from the LDS church than I'm sorry, but you're a limp-wristed weakling.

The only time our policy prevents people from escaping our attention is when they try incredibly passive tactics. If I wanted to I could get the Church to leave me alone much more easily than the credit card companies sending me new offers every day.

The Nehor wrote:What?

This is no more sinister than an alumni organization knowing where you life. If you want them to stop visiting then tell them or get your name removed. If you move with the specific intention of getting away from the LDS church than I'm sorry, but you're a limp-wristed weakling.

The only time our policy prevents people from escaping our attention is when they try incredibly passive tactics. If I wanted to I could get the Church to leave me alone much more easily than the credit card companies sending me new offers every day.

Yeah, and all 3 have something in common - they want your money.

The Nehor, perhaps you're just young enough not to have heard all the inspirational stories that glorify not leaving people alone, even when they ask for it. You know, like the story I've heard in various forms at various times in church where some bishop or stake president tells a story of a guy who'd been offended and left the church when he was young. You know, then there's the home teacher that goes and knocks on the guy's door every month for 30 years but the guy never lets him in. That doesn't stop the home teacher though, who keeps coming back every month. Finally the guy lets in the home teacher and ends up returning to the church. And then, the predictable punchline "and that man was me." If that kind of talk doesn't glorify not letting people go and leaving them alone, I don't know what does.

Interestingly, though, ever since the second meeting with my bishop a year or so ago, when he realized that my unbelief wasn't just me having been offended, or wanting to sin, or having been fooled into believe some untrue anti-mormon stuff he could correct me on, and he really had nothing to offer to counter my objections to the notion of the church being true, I haven't heard peep from him, his councilors, the EQ president, or anyone else. I guess they're just glad they still have my wife and daughter, and maybe they don't wish to rock the boat and risk me doing something more aggressive like actually having my name removed. It's interesting to me.

I loved Hollands interview, because it was very natural and he answered some tough questions.

Highlights were (1) about Blacks and the priesthood, with an answer I actually disagreed with in that I have no fear of the history of the doctrine. His responce was that they simply are not going to discuss it anymore. Well, if that's how the brethren want to handle it, so be it. (2) Gays in the church. A very good and thorough discussion, with interesting insight into how the brethren have to deal with the issue on a regular basis.

Those are just from memory, I would have to re-read it to discuss it further.

Sethbag wrote:Interestingly, though, ever since the second meeting with my bishop a year or so ago, when he realized that my unbelief wasn't just me having been offended, or wanting to sin, or having been fooled into believe some untrue anti-mormon stuff he could correct me on, and he really had nothing to offer to counter my objections to the notion of the church being true, I haven't heard peep from him, his councilors, the EQ president, or anyone else. I guess they're just glad they still have my wife and daughter, and maybe they don't wish to rock the boat and risk me doing something more aggressive like actually having my name removed. It's interesting to me.

Yeah, my experience (so far) is quite different than the one you read about on RfM over and over again.

Mine's pretty much like yours, except there's only been one meeting. That was over 6 months ago. Haven't heard a peep from anyone since that time. And I make it to sac. meeting maybe twice a month. But I haven't been to EQ or SS in over a year.

And like you, I'm sure they're just glad to still have the wife and kids.

I think that's great. I leave them alone, and they leave me alone. Everybody wins.

I still make it to Sacrament Meeting most of the time, as in I'd guess 80-90% of the time. But I haven't been to Sunday School or Priesthood Meeting in probably 5 months now. My wife and I take separate cars to church (which is like 2 miles away) and after SM I just hop in my car and go home. I don't really talk about the church with other church members locally. I'm sure if I did, and it started filtering back to the bishop, then he'd kind of be forced to act against me. But as long as I don't rock the boat with anyone in the ward, I think he's going to just live with the status quo. I wonder if I'd get in trouble with him if someone in the ward discovered my online MAD and MDB persona and complained? Also, I wonder if I now have a dossier with the SCMC?