DiscussMormonism.com

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Actually, progressive companies have evolved out of 19th century thinking, but the church largely hasn't. In the corporate world, it used to be "buyer beware" but that has been replaced by "no questions asked" refunds and customer service at all costs. The church is still a "buyer beware" product.

One thing is for certain, however: the church wants paying customers, and they aren't beyond high-pressure sales tactics in order to land them. There's a lot of bait-and-switch going on (or, as they like to call it, "milk before meat") but they're definitely about getting new customers. They'll even stoop to encouraging members to have as many babies as irresponsible, because babies are a lot easier to influence into living by magical thinking than adults are. Way easier sale there.

Probably my most cynical belief is that the church is indeed a corporation whose main interests lie in growth and income. I wish I didn't believe that, but I do.

Ummm, YAH!!!!!!!!!

I think the beliefs and psychology of the men that started the Church as well as the ones that maintain it are much more complicated than that. High salaries aside, it seems that the GAs of today were as much indoctrinated as youth, exploited as young adults, as the rest of us. I think the GAs believe their own religion, but you're right when you say that essentially this is all that is happening.

Then you have to remember that there are really only a few GAs making money off the Church. The vast majority are hard working men and women putting in and not getting anything out of it. If you took away the really high paid GAs it would indeed be difficult to say that anyone was benefiting from the Church temporally. To me there would be something beautiful to that, but the Brethren making fat salaries and refusing to let anyone know the truth puts a bit of a damper on the unpaid clergy idea for me.

ajax18 wrote:I think the beliefs and psychology of the men that started the Church as well as the ones that maintain it are much more complicated than that. High salaries aside, it seems that the GAs of today were as much indoctrinated as youth, exploited as young adults, as the rest of us. I think the GAs believe their own religion, but you're right when you say that essentially this is all that is happening.

I suspect this idea is caused by residue from when you were a believer. I know both my brother and I were fairly easy on the GA's shortly after leaving. You get over it.

There are some really bad men in the world. I think some of the worst or those who perpetuate the lies told by religions. How could a GA get to where they're at, see that the revelations aren't flowing like they should, continue to pour it on not be a wicked person? I suppose you could chalk it up to massive delusion, but that's a bit too easy AFAIC.

Some of them might be sincere (delusional) but I imagine those are sniffed out by the guys at the highest level and they're never made privy to the reality of the uppermost ranks of the church.

Some Schmo, I don't really agree with you on this one. I think most if not all of the GAs today actually do believe the church is true. They are operating based on that assumption. Sure, the revelations aren't flowing, and they aren't seeing Jesus Christ in the upper rooms of the Salt Lake Temple like so many LDS believe, but they can explain it all away to themselves in a way that convinces themselves that they're still lead by inspiration. I believe they are sincere.

It's entirely possible that you just don't get to be a GA these days unless you act in certain ways while you're "working your way up" the food chain, and that you just don't act that way unless you're just totally gonzo into it.

I have this little pet theory I've been tossing back and forth in my mind that says there's some kind of point, like an Event Horizon, past which, if you go, you essentially cannot ever be convinced otherwise. You know what I'm talking about - the people who, if you could provide absolutel, definitive, conclusive proof that it was all manmade, would just assume that it was somehow all a lie made up by the devil to test their faith, and go on believing anyhow.

Remember that sig line someone here has of grampa75 saying even if God himself were to appear and say the Mormon church wasn't true, he'd ask God how much he knew about it, and would he like to know more?

Runtu is right. But how could it be any other way? The bottom line sustains all other activities. There are no free loaves and fish in the real world.

But, I do believe as others have suggested, its business model is obsolete. The heirarchy is obsessed with control. Large businesses that get into this stage simply admit that they are conserving, hanging on to what they have, and not growing. Growth requires innovation and risk. No other business door-to-door sells today, except Kirby (and to be successful at it their tactics are the epitome of dishonesty and desperation), but they can't find anything else that works.

Why can't they find anything else that works? Because this obsession with top-down despotic rule. They can hire all the consultants and researchers with phds they want, they're not going to stumble on the secret formula which they can package into spam, pass down through comittees, and cookie out to all the wards and branches in the world. Hey, how many dictors, kings, and supreme leaders have endlessly consulted the wisest and richest while inexorably doomed to failure?

The church geriocracy is stuck in the great depression. Saving niggardly, investing in Real Estate, and worshiping the spirit of Frederick Winslow Taylor.
With the current organization, they are probably doing about the best they can.

So let me tell you how the church could really grow. They need to back off on the bricks and invest in human capital. The salvation of the church doesn't depend on Jesus (who doesn't exist), the prophet, the missionaries, or the widows, but primarily the bishops.

Step One:

Get rid of ward boundries. Let the "Saints" go where they're comfortable, let the market decide where the wards will be.

Step Two:

Mold bishops into franchise owners where they're paid, have the flexibility to quit their jobs and do ministry full time, and have generous financial incentives for their success. The bishops of the church should be living in big houses with swimming pools and boats, they should have "the life" and be icons for the peons to emulate. Bonuses and salary should be based on local tithing revenues, increases, and so on. They shouldn't have to worry about family and two full-time jobs. Most of them can't.

Step Three:

Disband the missionary program completely. When the bonus checks are flowing, the right local leaders will figure out how to do ward missionary work in their local areas.

Grayskull, I don't think that would help....

One problem I see for the Church is the stagnation at the top. With people living much longer than they used to the top leardership becomes a bit stagnant. GBH could very well live another 10 years. What happens when demensa sets in? Also, the leaders that will fill his shoes are no spring chickens either.

One thing about this type of structured authority, change comes very slowly....

Most Mormons would see that as a strenghth...

I know a few businesses that are just religions in disguise.