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Hopefully society will become advanced enough to finally treat the Torah/Old Testament as the misguided and detrimental material that it really is. I am sure some reading this are thinking about the few "good" points made in the Bible. It is hard to imagine that anyone in a Jewish or Christian sect can read the Torah/Pentateuch or the larger Old Testament and not be offended by the intolerant, divisive, and warmonger god of Judaism and Christianity.

It is indicative of humans’ primitive tribal tendencies to be extremely concerned about a few deaths of their own “tribe” and completely discount thousands of deaths of those from other “tribes”. This tendency is represented in the religious holiday of the Passover. It is disturbing that adherents of Judaism and Christianity celebrate mass infanticide and murder of the Egyptian first born. In a broader view the Passover is a celebration of the annihilation of the inhabitants of the land of Canaan. Archaeological and historical sources indicate that neither of these events happened. However that is not relevant to the state of the believers’ attitudes, opinions, and beliefs. The problem is that many of the adherents of Judaism and Christianity believe that these atrocities actually happened and are celebrating deaths of thousands of children, women, and men. This mindset is the same as those who celebrate the Holocaust, 9/11, and terrorist attacks. Genocide and murder are genocide and murder regardless of who is committing the atrocities. One of the major problems with religion, the Torah/Old Testament, Book of Mormon, and Koran is that it provides a “god” sanctioned rationale for murder.

Many Mormons, Christians, Jews, and Muslims wait for their respective gods to rescue them from the remainder of the world by murdering the non-believers. It is ironic that these believers cannot see that their respective gods/messiahs are of the same ilk as Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. It is also a sad testament to human self-serving biases and difficulty to arrive at logically derived conclusions.

Hi Cooper...

Yep! If Moses and Joshua claim God told them to go into villages and slaughter every single person including babies and the elderly, and take the young girls to rape, then there is not a problem.

But if terrorists claim God told them to bomb innocent people all of a sudden killing is of Satan.

:-(

I'm right with you... if the God of the Old Testament is anything close to the real God, the universe is in serious trouble!

~dancer~

TD when did Jehovah order raping infidel women? I always remember him forbidding intermarriage and mixing of seed with non Jews.

Yes I have tribal instincts. It's part of who I am. If you don't believe in the scriptures on what basis do you determine how people are supposed to act or what they are supposed to value at all?

For me if there were no afterlife or religion, I would value my own genes. Not because someone told me to (as is the case for minorities) or told me not to (as is the case for caucasians), but because that's how I was born. If there is no religion or afterlife, what else can you present to me that is of more value than your own genes?

So yes, I'm way more angry about the death of one American soldier than I am for millions of insurgent Iraqis. I think anyone worthy of partaking of the benefits we receive from the sacrifice of their lives should feel the same way. Of course some people seem to care more about the people trying to destroy them than the soldiers trying to protect them, as if the soldiers are somehow financially compensated enough that its just a part of the job. What a bunch of crap!

If I had my way I wouldn't send in ground troops at all. I'd blow them all away with a few atom bombs before I even thought about losing one American soldier.

Edited.

I don't even want to engage on that level.

The death of Egytians was part of the military force requred to free the slaves. I think freeing slaves is worth war. Now of course if you are a slaveholder and want to keep it that way then it is likely that you will describe the use of force freeing slaves with terms such as murder. I do not sympathize with that slaveholder sense of privelige. It is violece angainst people and results naturally in violence as a response.

I do not think violence between people will stop untill people put into action the principals of human worth that the Old testiment is based upon. The book has plenty of history of violence that is caused by human greed and manipulation. To imagine that the book is teaching that the violence is the way things should be is to read half asleep or not really reading it at all except in fragments.

God did not command raping people. And as far as the hysterical probible reply. I do not know of God commanding against mixing seed. The Jews have never been a racially pure anything group. racial purity is far from a Biblical concept.

I emphatically do not believe the God of the Bible is intoerant of anything except people abusing his children.God has allowed countless religions to go along through time. God does not stamp them out nor does his chosen people in the Bible.

I think it is entirely permissible to be revolted by the violence of the conquest of Cannan. But if that is what disturbs you why are you changing the subject to broad and wrong generalities like God is makeing war hither and yon, is intolerant of other religions and has no concern for people. Those kind of generalities are simple diversions from the real problem to false strawmen

Hey Ajax....

TD when did Jehovah order raping infidel women? I always remember him forbidding intermarriage and mixing of seed with non Jews.

I don't think "Jehovah" or anyone else ever odered raping "infidel women." What is in the Old Testament is Moses and Joshua believing God told them to slaughter whole communities... babies, children, young boys, families, elderly, and animals... and taking the unmarried girls for themselves. Are you unfamiliar with this story?

Yes I have tribal instincts.

Yes, we all do.

It's part of who I am. If you don't believe in the scriptures on what basis do you determine how people are supposed to act or what they are supposed to value at all?

Are you suggesting you base how you are supposed to act and what is of value on the scriptures? That is pretty dangerous in my opinion. One can justify anything cruel, horrific, dangerous, or harmful on scripture.

For me if there were no afterlife or religion, I would value my own genes.

Yes, I think this is a common phenomenon in life.

Not because someone told me to (as is the case for minorities) or told me not to (as is the case for caucasians), but because that's how I was born.

Yes... again I believe this is in our DNA as it is in all of life.

If there is no religion or afterlife, what else can you present to me that is of more value than your own genes?

You value your DNA because it is in your DNA to value... to survive. I think it is pretty clear that humankind has found ways to keep our species going in addition to just valueing one's own genes... think of Game Theory here. :-) Parenting, community, cooperation, etc are all ways life has found to better survive.

So yes, I'm way more angry about the death of one American soldier than I am for millions of insurgent Iraqis. I think anyone worthy of partaking of the benefits we receive from the sacrifice of their lives should feel the same way.

I don't even know how to respond to this. It is VERY reflective of what I see wrong with religion.

If I had my way I wouldn't send in ground troops at all. I'd blow them all away with a few atom bombs before I even thought about losing one American soldier.

I'm trying to be respectful but to be honest, this statement is an example of why religion is dangerous. To think you are comfortable with killing innocent children, families, babies, because you think you are better than others.... I just really find this disheartening to say the least. And I wonder if it stems from your religious beliefs and ideas.

Have your read, Sam Harris, "The End of Faith?" Or Richard Hawkins, "The God Delusion?"

Both authors speak to those who share your beliefs...

~dancer~

I'm not completely against Shades idea of strict isolationism if that would indeed get the Arabs to leave us alone, . . .

For the record, I'm only in favor of military isolationism, not economic or "strict" isolationism.

You value your DNA because it is in your DNA to value... to survive. I think it is pretty clear that humankind has found ways to keep our species going in addition to just valueing one's own genes... think of Game Theory here. :-) Parenting, community, cooperation, etc are all ways life has found to better survive.

What good is the species if you're dead and no longer a part of it? Parenting, community, cooperation are adapted for tribal living and small communities. We're talking about an international conflict. I think Cooper was championing the idea of a world community. That's fine but are you ready to live in a Moslem world community because anything else will not be acceptable to them and will leave us divided. Let me ask you Cooper. Would you sacrifice your child for the betterment of this world community? Say giving up your child means saving 100,000 Moslems. I mean the ratio really isn't in your favor? Is it nepotistic and evil to value one's own child to that extent?

ajax18 wrote:TD when did Jehovah order raping infidel women? I always remember him forbidding intermarriage and mixing of seed with non Jews.

Yes I have tribal instincts. It's part of who I am. If you don't believe in the scriptures on what basis do you determine how people are supposed to act or what they are supposed to value at all?

For me if there were no afterlife or religion, I would value my own genes. Not because someone told me to (as is the case for minorities) or told me not to (as is the case for caucasians), but because that's how I was born. If there is no religion or afterlife, what else can you present to me that is of more value than your own genes?

So yes, I'm way more angry about the death of one American soldier than I am for millions of insurgent Iraqis. I think anyone worthy of partaking of the benefits we receive from the sacrifice of their lives should feel the same way. Of course some people seem to care more about the people trying to destroy them than the soldiers trying to protect them, as if the soldiers are somehow financially compensated enough that its just a part of the job. What a bunch of crap!

If I had my way I wouldn't send in ground troops at all. I'd blow them all away with a few atom bombs before I even thought about losing one American soldier.

Maybe if we could have gotten past glorifying the ancient Hebrews, who were primitive, savage, tribal warmongers, and the god they invented, maybe we wouldn't be in a war with Iraq now, 6,000 years later. Or maybe humanity will always be primitive, savage and tribal no matter what veneer of civilization we try to mask it with. The value we put on our own genes is an animal instinct, nothing more, it has ruled our species from the beginning and probably always will.

We could have peace instead of this.

truth dancer wrote:Hey Ajax....

TD when did Jehovah order raping infidel women? I always remember him forbidding intermarriage and mixing of seed with non Jews.

I don't think "Jehovah" or anyone else ever odered raping "infidel women." What is in the Old Testament is Moses and Joshua believing God told them to slaughter whole communities... babies, children, young boys, families, elderly, and animals... and taking the unmarried girls for themselves. Are you unfamiliar with this story?

Ah yes, one of my favorite Bible verses.
"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

That's so inspirational. It causes my eyes to moist up every time I read it.

I'm thinking of creating one of those Bible Quotes calendars, with pretty pictures of flowers, birds, and butterflies, but instead of having inspirational quotes, it will have these disturbing verses.