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This comes from the WashingtonPost interview with Helen Whitney following the airing of "The Mormons."

Cedar City, Utah: I felt the documentary was very informative and objective and struck a fair balance. I'm curious what your personal thoughts are about the Mormon faith. What was the most fascinating thing you learned as you worked on the documentary? What is your general feeling now about the Mormon religion?

Helen Whitney: I was struck by the emphasis on certainty in your religion. I come from a tradition which encourages doubt and questioning. My own faith is inflected with doubt which I feel is intimately connected to my faith. However, I sense from many conversations with Mormon believers that doubt can be seen as undermining of the faith, even dangerous to it. When I went to my first testimonial meeting, and heard men, women and children describe their faith using the words "I know" I was truly surprised. They didn't use words like: I hope, I believe, I intuit, but the ubiquitous phrase I know. For some Mormons, this can be inspirational, and yet for others it can be intimidating and discourage them from voicing their own questions. Nonetheless, as I spent time in the Mormon culture I came to learn that their certainty is a complex many layered encounter with the divine.

I was born in the covenant and grew up questioning many parts of Mormonism and God but it was not something my TBM mother ever approved of. My father who was a closet doubter, welcomed my questioning but never let me take it too far. This was something even as a child that bothered me in the Mormon church, especially during testimony meeting each month.

As an adult I often longed to have this "sure knowledge" that other Mormons claimed to have. I never could have said that I knew God existed or that the church was true "beyond a shadow of a doubt." I had strong faith,belief, & desire that He did exist and that the priesthood was restored, but never once in my entire life could I have said "I know." As a result, I can't think of a time that I bore testimony in the church using those words.

A short time ago I had spoken with a TBM family member about my inactivity so they could hear my side and not the rumors. I was struck by the certainty this person had with their testimony of the Mormon church and God/Jesus/Holy Ghost. She felt that because I didn't have "a sure knowledge" that she had, that I had left room for Satan to come in and plant seeds of doubt. I told her that I won't "KNOW" God exists until I die but that I had a strong faith and testimony that
He does exist. This was something she couldn't understand and has now attributed my dissillusionment of the church to it. We then went on to discuss what it would take for me to "know" such as angels appearing vs. the Spirit speaking, how I prayed when asking for testimony, how often I read my scriptures, if God wre to appear etc.

Of course there must be something wrong with me since I don't know 100% and allow for the possibility that I could be wrong.

I told her it is dishonest for me to say "I know" something that I can't really know until I pass on from mortality. I thought those who were given a sure knowledge were very few in the scriptures and held to full accountability if they rejected God. (outer darkness) Faith is not only trusting in His words,commandments, etc. , but also in believing something that we haven't been given a "sure knowledge of." That was how I always understood it.

Helen Whitney's observation really hit close to home because I had always felt soemthing was wrong with me as a Mormon when I couldn't say "I know" and if I admitted that I had questions or doubts. Her faith allows that and has intimately connected her to God. That is healthy, not dangerous like TBMs believe.

Your experience is not uncommon. My brother struggled with the same thing. Being raised in the church, the Holy Ghost has always been around you, so as where a convert to the church will find the Holy Ghost striking and abrupt, you feel it almost in a common way.

I'll tell you what I told my brother, and maybe it will help. Look to the times when you know the Holy Ghost was there, remember the calm assurance, the strike of a new idea and a new viewpoint on what seemed to be an understood topic of the gospel before. Now remember to the time you went somewhere you knew you werent supposed to go, the opposite is true, the knowledge that your defying your moral values, your going against what was taught to you. The cold feeling inside, the empty feeling. That is the Holy Ghost leaving you because your visiting a place he cannot be.

If you want more of a witness than this, then offer up a proper prayer, kneeling with head bowed and arms folded, not leaning on anything. Offer it up vocaly. Ask a yes or no question, and give God time to answer. He will.

further reading:http://speeches.BYU.edu/?act=viewitem&id=628

Gazelam wrote:Your experience is not uncommon. My brother struggled with the same thing. Being raised in the church, the Holy Ghost has always been around you, so as where a convert to the church will find the Holy Ghost striking and abrupt, you feel it almost in a common way.

I'll tell you what I told my brother, and maybe it will help. Look to the times when you know the Holy Ghost was there, remember the calm assurance, the strike of a new idea and a new viewpoint on what seemed to be an understood topic of the gospel before. Now remember to the time you went somewhere you knew you werent supposed to go, the opposite is true, the knowledge that your defying your moral values, your going against what was taught to you. The cold feeling inside, the empty feeling. That is the Holy Ghost leaving you because your visiting a place he cannot be.

If you want more of a witness than this, then offer up a proper prayer, kneeling with head bowed and arms folded, not leaning on anything. Offer it up vocaly. Ask a yes or no question, and give God time to answer. He will.

further reading:http://speeches.BYU.edu/?act=viewitem&id=628

What could you possibly need an answer to that you couldn't figure out yourself?

I can pick out my own world view, my own politics, my own wife, my own college, my own job, my house, my doctor, select my own medical treatment, etc. I only really need help with picking stocks. I take that back. I don't pick stocks. I invest in low cost indexed mutual funds and don't worry about it.

Gazelam wrote:Your experience is not uncommon. My brother struggled with the same thing. Being raised in the church, the Holy Ghost has always been around you, so as where a convert to the church will find the Holy Ghost striking and abrupt, you feel it almost in a common way.

I'll tell you what I told my brother, and maybe it will help. Look to the times when you know the Holy Ghost was there, remember the calm assurance, the strike of a new idea and a new viewpoint on what seemed to be an understood topic of the gospel before. Now remember to the time you went somewhere you knew you werent supposed to go, the opposite is true, the knowledge that your defying your moral values, your going against what was taught to you. The cold feeling inside, the empty feeling. That is the Holy Ghost leaving you because your visiting a place he cannot be.

If you want more of a witness than this, then offer up a proper prayer, kneeling with head bowed and arms folded, not leaning on anything. Offer it up vocaly. Ask a yes or no question, and give God time to answer. He will.

further reading:http://speeches.BYU.edu/?act=viewitem&id=628

Hi Gazelam, :)
I appreciate the input, but I would like to ask you a question and I would appreciate your complete honesty. Assuming you believe to "know" the church is true, do you have a "sure knowledge" in which there is not one ounce of room for the possibilty that you could be wrong? Is your experience with the Holy Ghost such a perfect witness that it equals what you will know after death?
Like I said, I have never had this kind of witness in all my life, though I desired to and did everything as you have advised. It's true that I am not a convert and it is different to be taught Mormonism as a child vs. converting as an adult, but I have heard talks in Conference from Apostles who stated that their testimonies were not "Wow" experiences either.

Also, can you clear up for me who is supposed to have a perfect witness? I had always been taught that very few people that ever lived on earth ever had a "perfect witness" yet this TBM claims to have one. I just feel that many members are either a) trying to strengthen their testimony and brainwashing themselves by saying "I know.."
b) have been given a sure witness for some reason that God has never given me, even though I did all I could
c) won't admit doubt because of the danger to their testimony but have the same experience as me
d) dishonest out of pressure from other members to conform and fit in

Seven wrote:Also, can you clear up for me who is supposed to have a perfect witness? I had always been taught that very few people that ever lived on earth ever had a "perfect witness" yet this TBM claims to have one. I just feel that many members are either a) trying to strengthen their testimony and brainwashing themselves by saying "I know.."
b) have been given a sure witness for some reason that God has never given me, even though I did all I could
c) won't admit doubt because of the danger to their testimony but have the same experience as me
d) dishonest out of pressure from other members to conform and fit in

No one can have a perfect witness, and no one can "know", unless they have seen God face to face and had their calling and election made sure, and that has never been done, the claims of the past or current Brethren notwithstanding.

Gazelam wrote:Your experience is not uncommon. My brother struggled with the same thing. Being raised in the church, the Holy Ghost has always been around you, so as where a convert to the church will find the Holy Ghost striking and abrupt, you feel it almost in a common way.

I'll tell you what I told my brother, and maybe it will help. Look to the times when you know the Holy Ghost was there, remember the calm assurance, the strike of a new idea and a new viewpoint on what seemed to be an understood topic of the gospel before. Now remember to the time you went somewhere you knew you werent supposed to go, the opposite is true, the knowledge that your defying your moral values, your going against what was taught to you. The cold feeling inside, the empty feeling. That is the Holy Ghost leaving you because your visiting a place he cannot be.

If you want more of a witness than this, then offer up a proper prayer, kneeling with head bowed and arms folded, not leaning on anything. Offer it up vocaly. Ask a yes or no question, and give God time to answer. He will.

further reading:http://speeches.BYU.edu/?act=viewitem&id=628

So what happens if you unfold your arms during the prayer, is it still valid? Will God still answer?

I didn't realize there's a "proper" way to pray. Sounds God's more an uptight bureaucrate ("sorry, can't answer your prayers, you didn't use the proper form") than a loving father.

by the way, I tried what you recommend numerous times. Didn't work. Nor has it worked for many, many others. What failure rate is required for you to begin to doubt the efficacy of this approach?

On a related subject, the arrogance implied in the "I know" rhetoric is quite a thing to behold. Of the billions upon billions who have inhabited this planet, God chooses you, little ol' you, to reveal truth to, while choosing not to reveal it to the billions upon billions of others.

I know why--the light bulb suddently went off. You asked on your knees, with head bowed and arms folded. They didn't. Of course, that's it.

Isn't it marvelous?

Wow, I just figured out how I could have lost my testimony as I did.

I leaned on things when I prayed. Usually the bed. Wow, how could I have been so stupid?

Sethbag wrote:Wow, I just figured out how I could have lost my testimony as I did.

I leaned on things when I prayed. Usually the bed. Wow, how could I have been so stupid?

I had a mission companion who almost every night fell asleep kneeling by the side of his bed. Maybe if he hadn't been leaning on it, I wouldn't have had to wake him up and tell him to go to bed.

Yes, Gaz, I have felt "the calm assurance, the strike of a new idea and a new viewpoint on what seemed to be an understood topic ... before." But it has always been in relation to intellectual study, to working on the level of conceptual theory. In other words, when reading something that breathlessly opened new vistas to me beyond what I had seen before:

Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He stared at the Pacific – and all his men
Looked at each other with a wild surmise–
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.

And I have also felt, "the time you went somewhere you knew you werent supposed to go..The cold feeling inside, the empty feeling." I always got a sick-in-the-pit of my stomach, empty, "heebie-jeebie" feeling whenever I was in my ward chapel. I remember two incidents in particular, too, when this "impression" overwhelmed me.

It was during two MIA meetings: one where my teacher lectured on the evils of feminism, and another where she repeated the oft-told Faith-Promoting Rumor about the couple whose temple marriage is interrupted when the officiator "has a feeling" that the marriage should not happen, an event which prompts one of the two to break down and "admit" they have "black blood" in them.

Blixa wrote:Yes, Gaz, I have felt "the calm assurance, the strike of a new idea and a new viewpoint on what seemed to be an understood topic ... before." But it has always been in relation to intellectual study, to working on the level of conceptual theory.

And I have also felt, "the time you went somewhere you knew you werent supposed to go..The cold feeling inside, the empty feeling." I always got a sick-in-the-pit of my stomach, empty, "heebie-jeebie" feeling whenever I was in my ward chapel. I remember two incidents in particular, too, when this "impression" overwhelmed me.

It was during two MIA meetings: one where my teacher lectured on the evils of feminism, and another where she repeated the oft-told Faith-Promoting Rumor about the couple whose temple marriage is interrupted when the officiator "has a feeling" that the marriage should not happen, an event which prompts one of the two to break down and "admit" they have "black blood" in them.

Someone actually said that? Yikes, I've never heard anything like that (and I've heard some awful FPRs in my day). Wow, that one takes the cake. I'd get the heebie-jeebies over that one, or maybe I'd just vomit.