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The Book of Mormon repeatedly warns against secret combinations, secret oaths, etc. Yet the LDS church has much that is secret and hidden.

1. temple rites open only to a few select members, and not at all to the general public, that are full of oaths and covenants
2. financials that are closed to the members and to the public
3. disciplinary meetings that are closed to the members and to the public

Any or all of those in combination could be interpreted to represent the secret combinations that the Book of Mormon warns against. Why have our leaders not changed these policies in order to come into line with our canon?

harmony wrote:The Book of Mormon repeatedly warns against secret combinations, secret oaths, etc. Yet the LDS church has much that is secret and hidden.

1. temple rites open only to a few select members, and not at all to the general public, that are full of oaths and covenants
2. financials that are closed to the members and to the public
3. disciplinary meetings that are closed to the members and to the public

Any or all of those in combination could be interpreted to represent the secret combinations that the Book of Mormon warns against. Why have our leaders not changed these policies in order to come into line with our canon?

Well, there are secret combinations and there are sacred combinations. Sacred combinations are good, and not really secret, but sacred means keeping things on the QT, not casting pearls before swine, and other Godly and Christlike principles. Of course, if this is a matter you have prayed about diligently and with the spirit, and if you still find an objection to the sacred matters of the church, all the Mormons here will totally support you in that view because unquestioning obedience is not church doctrine and the church has never taught it.

1. temple rites open only to a few select members, and not at all to the general public, that are full of oaths and covenants
2. financials that are closed to the members and to the public
3. disciplinary meetings that are closed to the members and to the public

Yet more clear evidence that Harmony is as fully apostate from the church, its teachings, and its fellowship as any wolf in sheep's clothing has ever been. Her comment in another thread that God created Satan lends ever more credibility to this observation.

Do you still hold your Temple recommend Harmony? If so, why?

Any or all of those in combination could be interpreted to represent the secret combinations that the Book of Mormon warns against. Why have our leaders not changed these policies in order to come into line with our canon?

This is as intellectually and doctrinally vacuous as anything I've ever seen posted here, and either Harmony knows very well that it is, in which case its nothing but a petty provocation, or she doesn't, which validates what I've long suspected, that she either isn't really even a Mormon at all, or she's a Mormon that hasn't ever paid to much attention to what was going on after baptism.

Why should all members have access to the sacred mysteries of the Temple, regardless of knowledge or worthiness? Why on earth should the Temple ordinances be open to the general public?

Why should church disciplinary counsels be open to members or the public? Why is it anybody's business but those involved? Why would Joe Sixpack want his adulterous affair with his secretary made known publically, especially if he is repentant? Why is it my business to know of Joe's sins?

Coggins7 wrote:

Any or all of those in combination could be interpreted to represent the secret combinations that the Book of Mormon warns against. Why have our leaders not changed these policies in order to come into line with our canon?

This is as intellectually and doctrinally vacuous as anything I've ever seen posted here, and either Harmony knows very well that it is, in which case its nothing but a petty provocation, or she doesn't, which validates what I've long suspected, that she either isn't really even a Mormon at all, or she's a Mormon that hasn't ever paid to much attention to what was going on after baptism.

Can the attacks, Loran. I didn't attack you; don't attack me. If you want to attack someone, go find some other thread to play on. This one's mine and I don't want any personal attacks on it.

Why should all members have access to the sacred mysteries of the Temple, regardless of knowledge or worthiness? Why on earth should the Temple ordinances be open to the general public?

Because there is nothing there that could remotely be deemed inappropriate for the public? Or because Joseph only closed them in the first place to keep his polygamous marriages secret? What is it about the temple ceremonies that would be at all inappropriate for the general public, ESPECIALLY the marriage and sealing ceremonies? They are not something to be ashamed of, not something to keep hidden like some nasty or distasteful ritual. There is nothing there that should be kept from public view anymore than our baptisms are kept from public view.

Why should church disciplinary counsels be open to members or the public? Why is it anybody's business but those involved? Why would Joe Sixpack want his adulterous affair with his secretary made known publically, especially if he is repentant? Why is it my business to know of Joe's sins?

Because if he sullies the church, he sullies the members.

And I noticed you didn't address #2 at all.

The purpose of secret combinations is to get gain and glory of the world. The great secret Cain learned was that murder is quite possibly the most profitable endeavor yet discovered. Lesser versions of the secret crush humanity and turn them into property to be used and abused. This is not limited to slavery. Breaking the human spirit is the most popular modern method.

A corporation that works people to near-death while holding the threat of starvation over the worker's head is a combination.
The criminals that murder to get wealth and remove competition are combinations.
Governments who inspire loyalty in their citizens in order to get them to rob other nations are built on combinations.
A conspiracy of silence among coworkers to hide a general scam on company leadership is a combination.
A group of monopolists systematically crushing anyone who tries to step into the same business is a combination.

The oaths of Secret Combinations are to ensure loyalty and that no one talks of their misdeeds. The oaths in the Book of Mormon were made in the name of God to try to make them more binding.

The Church does not fit here Harmony. The Temple Oaths are between you and God and no one else will enforce them. If breaking Temple Oaths got you killed there'd be a lot more murders in the Mormon West and worldwide. Finances being closed is not a mark of a secret combination in any of the examples I've read in the Book of Mormon or the Book of Moses. This charge seems frivolous. The D&C differentiates clearly that some of our meetings are to be before the world and some not. We would be in violation of the revelations (D&C 42:89) if we were to hold them before the world.

Nehor, quoting the D&C to me is useless. I consider very little of it to be God-breathed, and the vast majority of it to be manufactured revelation based on expediency at the time. Give me Bible or Book of Mormon.

If the church does not fit a secret combination, then why is so much of it secret? Please tell me why are these reasons not valid:

1. Joseph closed the temples in order to hide his polygamous marriages from the public, the members not involved in polygamy, and his wife. There is no reason for them to be closed now, except the Brethren refuse to change a policy the reason for which disappeared several generations ago. To maintain this policy is simply a matter of selfishness and cruelty.

2. The books were closed in 1957 to hide fiscal malfeasance on the part of some of the Brethren. There is no reason to maintain this policy unless there is still something to hide.

3. Disciplinary councils are secret to protect the church, not the person being discliplined.

harmony wrote:Nehor, quoting the D&C to me is useless. I consider very little of it to be God-breathed, and the vast majority of it to be manufactured revelation based on expediency at the time. Give me Bible or Book of Mormon.

If the church does not fit a secret combination, then why is so much of it secret? Please tell me why are these reasons not valid:

1. Joseph closed the temples in order to hide his polygamous marriages from the public, the members not involved in polygamy, and his wife. There is no reason for them to be closed now, except the Brethren refuse to change a policy the reason for which disappeared several generations ago. To maintain this policy is simply a matter of selfishness and cruelty.

2. The books were closed in 1957 to hide fiscal malfeasance on the part of some of the Brethren. There is no reason to maintain this policy unless there is still something to hide.

3. Disciplinary councils are secret to protect the church, not the person being discliplined.

I would add to this list the semi-secrecy of the CHI. Yes, I know it is available online, but the Church tried very, very hard---to the extent that they nearly changed a fundamental aspect of the Internet---to prevent it from being publicly "leaked." Further, within the context of the Church, the CHI is essentially kept from the membership. I.e., the members are kept in the dark as to the very rules which govern the operations of the Church.

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Why should all members have access to the sacred mysteries of the Temple, regardless of knowledge or worthiness? Why on earth should the Temple ordinances be open to the general public?

Because there is nothing there that could remotely be deemed inappropriate for the public? Or because Joseph only closed them in the first place to keep his polygamous marriages secret? What is it about the temple ceremonies that would be at all inappropriate for the general public, ESPECIALLY the marriage and sealing ceremonies? They are not something to be ashamed of, not something to keep hidden like some nasty or distasteful ritual. There is nothing there that should be kept from public view anymore than our baptisms are kept from public view.

This is well, well over your head Harmony, I know, but the Temple ceremonies are sacred (as opposed to profane, or worldly), and neither the world, which cannot comprehend them in any case, nor members who are not worthy or prepared to receive them, have any business with them. I understand that, at the present, this is way over your head, but that is why they are "secret".

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Why should church disciplinary counsels be open to members or the public? Why is it anybody's business but those involved? Why would Joe Sixpack want his adulterous affair with his secretary made known publically, especially if he is repentant? Why is it my business to know of Joe's sins?

Because if he sullies the church, he sullies the members.

This is logically irrelevant. Care to try again.

Mister Scratch wrote:I would add to this list the semi-secrecy of the CHI. Yes, I know it is available online, but the Church tried very, very hard---to the extent that they nearly changed a fundamental aspect of the Internet---to prevent it from being publicly "leaked." Further, within the context of the Church, the CHI is essentially kept from the membership. I.e., the members are kept in the dark as to the very rules which govern the operations of the Church.

Agreed. A member should be handed his own personal copy of the CHI as he/she comes out of the baptismal font (with appropriate ceremony). The church is the only organization I know of that doesn't automatically give the rules of the organization to the members at the first opporunity.

It's all tied up with this whole SECRET thing we've got going. I think we'd be much better off without all these secrets.

Secret combinations are only secret combinations if they're for gain? That doesn't say much about the secret temple or the secret books, since money has to be given in order to be allowed to enter the temple, and money is what the closed books is all about.