The anti-Christianity of the Racist Right

[_Coggins7]

And just for the record, as to my Libertarian leanings, I'm partial to Robert Nozick's conept of the "minimal state" that is, a small, limited, and restrained government doing only what it is best capacitated to do (primarily national and civil defense, as the Constitution mandates) and leaving the rest to the private sector and individuals within it.

I have serious problems, on the other hand, with the Rothbardian wing of the Libertarian movement.

[_capt jack]

That's a very interesting point. It's just surprising to me because most German colonies I visited didn't look much different from America or western Europe. It was a good place to stop if you just wanted to get out of the dirt and grunge and sit in a nice house for a few hours.

Nowadays, yes, that's true. But in the 1920s it wasn't.

Unfortunately not all descendants of German immigrants live in those enclaves. Misiones, a northern Argentine province that received thousands of immigrants from Europe as well as Japan, is dirt poor. There was a booming industry in adoptions there, as couples from Europe and North America could adopt "white" babies for dirt-cheap; in many cases, the mothers were so poor they essentially gave their kids away to adoption brokers for a few hundred dollars. I've been told, but don't know for a fact, that a similiar thing happens in southern Brazil.

[_Mister Scratch]

And, it is undisputed that the Church sends illegals out on missions with the United States. When I was a high councilor many years ago, and responsible for our Spanish unit, I saw it all the time.

I opened this thread and raised it because I see how irresponsible and unChristian many so-called Christians are on the point of "brown" immigration. The U.S. economy is the strongest in the world. The stock market is near its peak. Unemployment is way down. Health care, although not perfect. is better than any other nation in the world of any particular size. Environmental development and legislation has improved living conditions. Retirement incomes are way up. Yet, since Reagan opened the floodgates with his amnest legislation, we've had 12 million new illegal immigrants into American society. What has the brought us? Prosperity and a much better way of life for them. I am so thrilled to be driving around on Saturdays and Sundays and seeing new soccer fields filled to capacity with the children of these immigrants. They deserve the best America can offer.

rcrocket

Some excellent points, Bob. I wonder how many of the anti-immigration folks actually live in areas---such as Southern California---where immigration is a day-to-day fact of life? This issue strikes me as being rather like the gay marriage issue, where those who most oppose gay marriage tend to not know any gay people at all.

Ultimately, it seems that the anti-immigration issue always comes back to the basic point that "it is against the law," which, let's face it, is a pretty lame argument. When you peel back the layers of sociological, economic, and other forms of argument used by the antis, what you tend to find is plain old, xenophobic racism---the kind that insists that ethnic differences be "whitewashed" away in the name of "assimilation." The same howls about "assimilation" were going on during the era of mass Italian immigration, too. This is no different.

The most simple question one can ask of anti-immigration, right-wingers is, "Why do you oppose immigration?" What you will find, I believe, is that every answer is really just a cover-up for some deeply held racist belief, such as in some fantasy, white man's version of "Americanism," or "assimilation," which, conveniently, the right-winger himself gets to define and enforce.

[_ajax18]

What do you mean it's not about overpopulation Coggins? I just don't agree. They're having more kids than they can support nor can their economic growth keep up with it at the current rate. I guess we'll have to leave it that.

So Rocket it's perfectly ok to value the Latino race and make sure they remain strong in number and culture but not the white race? Nothing I say will get you to admit that illegal immigration is hurting people like myself because the truth is you don't care about me anymore than I care about the Mexicans. The truth is that you're just as racist as me, but it's just socially acceptable for you to value your race right now.

Thank you Scratch. You're open door policy will drive our economy to ruin and create a huge divide between rich and poor. Don't sit back and blame the Republicans for not implementing some hair brained socialistic taxation scheme that would have stopped the country from going down the toilet.

[_Jason Bourne]

The Church sends 19-year-olds who are illegal immigrants on missions within the U.S. The Church knows of their status. What does that tell you about how the Church views the offense?

Official Church source please.

We had a 22 year old illegal person in our ward and called SLC and they said we could send him on a mission from our US ward.

[_Jason Bourne]

You're going to have to decide what you want: cheap food or expensive food. That's essentially what this whole argument is about. Immigrant labor is used mostly in the food industry, either in the fields or in the processing plants.

There are millions of immigrants who stay very quietly under the radar, paying taxes, working hard, staying out of trouble. For their employers, they are a boon. For their fellow native workers, they are a drain. According to George Borjas, Harvard University, 2006, immigrant workers shift the net gain to the employers of immigrant workers and to every other native-born person, by about $80 per worker. That's a lot of money to gain by using immigrant workers instead of native workers, about $20 billion annually. Why? Because native-born workers want more money to do the same job that immigrant workers will do for less. How many native workers would do the jobs immigrants do, for the wages immigrants are paid?

I pay out about 10% of our Pickle wages on food. Would anyone be willing to pay out 40% of their wages to put food on the table, if it meant workers in agriculture and the food industry were paid a living wage? I doubt it. We like to talk big, but when push comes to shove, we don't want to pay more for our food. Let's face it: we're willing to put up with illegal immigrants in order to put cheap food on our tables.

Here is the problem with your argument. There was a time in recent history where these jobs were filled to a large extent by US citizens. Food was not overly expensive then. And there is no reason why a capable welfare recepient cannot take these jobs at the pay they would get for them. Many just won't do it. They should be required to do so if they want help.

As for me, I would like to see a good guest worker program put in place. If we need immigrants to do the works let's do it right.

[_Jason Bourne]

Ajax: As you leave the Church (I don't know where you are on that journey) I hope you come to know that your attitudes are racist. Who is to say that a blonde person is better than a brown person? I would submit that blondes are the barbarians and pagans brought into christianity at the point of a sword by brown-skinned people.

I cringe when I hear comments among my friends or in Church about the declining number of blondes on our soccer teams and elementary schools. Members of the Church should have no basis for saying such things. I celebrate the use of our church buildings by the Hispanic community. At least they are coming to know Christ -- the very promise given to Lehi's children is being fulfilled in our day.

rcrocket

I have to say that I am conflicted. While on a policy level I am for regulating and managing immigation better. I am happy to have them here is we could do it in a regulated and controlled way.

OTOH, my ward has had four hispanic illegals join in the past few year. We are the spanish base in our area. As I have come to know these brothers on a personal level, know about their lives, families and dreams well I am touched. They are active and faithful. When you put real people with it it makes the issue harder.

[_Jason Bourne]

Some excellent points, Bob. I wonder how many of the anti-immigration folks actually live in areas---such as Southern California---where immigration is a day-to-day fact of life? This issue strikes me as being rather like the gay marriage issue, where those who most oppose gay marriage tend to not know any gay people at all.

I live in such an area.

Ultimately, it seems that the anti-immigration issue always comes back to the basic point that "it is against the law," which, let's face it, is a pretty lame argument. When you peel back the layers of sociological, economic, and other forms of argument used by the antis, what you tend to find is plain old, xenophobic racism---the kind that insists that ethnic differences be "whitewashed" away in the name of "assimilation." The same howls about "assimilation" were going on during the era of mass Italian immigration, too. This is no different.

What a load of horse manure. And what a typical left wing socialist argument. If you are against unfettered immigration them we will label you racist. How typical of left wing radicalism. Free speech is fine when you agree with such pundents. But if you disagree they shut you up with ad hominem name calling.

The most simple question one can ask of anti-immigration, right-wingers is, "Why do you oppose immigration?" What you will find, I believe, is that every answer is really just a cover-up for some deeply held racist belief, such as in some fantasy, white man's version of "Americanism," or "assimilation," which, conveniently, the right-winger himself gets to define and enforce.

I
I have no problem with regulated and legal immigration. I am for a guest worker program that could lead to citizenship. I am for this because I believe unfettred illegla immigration is a drain on resources, increases taxes and threatens prosperity and the economic well being of me, my children and future posterity. I also believe unrestricted borders are a security threat.

[_Coggins7]

Some excellent points, Bob. I wonder how many of the anti-immigration folks actually live in areas---such as Southern California---where immigration is a day-to-day fact of life? This issue strikes me as being rather like the gay marriage issue, where those who most oppose gay marriage tend to not know any gay people at all.

Hint: every issue strikes Scratch as similar to the Gay rights issue.

Ultimately, it seems that the anti-immigration issue always comes back to the basic point that "it is against the law," which, let's face it, is a pretty lame argument. When you peel back the layers of sociological, economic, and other forms of argument used by the antis, what you tend to find is plain old, xenophobic racism---the kind that insists that ethnic differences be "whitewashed" away in the name of "assimilation." The same howls about "assimilation" were going on during the era of mass Italian immigration, too. This is no different.

Same old left wing moral pontification. Any evidence, facts, or logical argument?

The most simple question one can ask of anti-immigration, right-wingers is, "Why do you oppose immigration?" What you will find, I believe, is that every answer is really just a cover-up for some deeply held racist belief, such as in some fantasy, white man's version of "Americanism," or "assimilation," which, conveniently, the right-winger himself gets to define and enforce.

Pure, 100% USDA fat free intellectal vacuity. No logic, no rational argumentation, no facts, and no evidence. Typical Scratch, tyical Leftwinger, typical CNN analysis.

[_Coggins7]

I have no problem with regulated and legal immigration. I am for a guest worker program that could lead to citizenship. I am for this because I believe unfettred illegla immigration is a drain on resources, increases taxes and threatens prosperity and the economic well being of me, my children and future posterity. I also believe unrestricted borders are a security threat.

And you are correct on all points. I await the moral outrage from rc and Scratch.