I am responsible for all of Kevin's sins

[_CaliforniaKid]

Since I am Kevin's friend, I have chosen to bear all of his sins.

Momus: I think you owe alot of other people an apology including Juliann and the Moderation team. You have alot of mess to start cleaning up. Especially since the person you admire most is willing to to make up evidence that doesn't exist for you.

Celestial Kingdom: Who is the person I admire most?

Momus: Well from the times that you have put in complaints about people accussing his sock puppets of being him and talking about him in unfavorable ways, not to mention how you run by all your New found evidences against the Book of Abraham through him. It would give me the impression that Kevin is.

Kevin, o unrepentant one, since you have failed to clean up your own mess, I am informed that it is my job to do so. I am therefore summarily turning myself over to the authorities for crucifixion. You may now wash my feet.

[_dartagnan]

Does this mean I am responsible for Dan's sins? They can't seem to get it throgh their heads that Dan is the one who is responsible for this fiasco. He is the one, who, for six years, spread a rumor that will probably be proved false in due time. William Schryver is the one, who, insisted he was "instructed" to warn us all of legal action from Gee.

But hey, this is my "mess"!

[Guest]

Momo is still beating the horse with Celestial Kingdom:

The point is you are blaming the wrong person as a catalyst in this episode.

Where has Celestial Kingdom blamed anyone? Any reasonable person can clearly see it is Dan Peterson who is the “catalyst” for a possible lawsuit. But we are not dealing with reasonable people there. We’re dealing with an upset icon whose followers don’t know how to react any other way than to be remarkably protective of him. He is never to blame for anything. Well, Robert Ritner thinks differently apparently. It wasn’t me who was threatened with a lawsuit, after all – despite the attempts from the Madsters to flip that burden over to me.

Apparently, Ritner is receiving emails from Madsters who are attacking me.

Do your worst guys. I'm banking on the fact that Ritner isn't stupid, he is rational, he is reasonable, he can separate BS from fact, and he won't be falling for your trap.

You know there was no editing done on our part.

Actually he doesn’t. He said he didn’t recall. But we know for a fact there was at least some editing when you guys removed posts and added more questions to Gee’s list. By telling Celestial Kingdom what he knows, you’re just trying to ram conclusions into his brain and mouth that he never made. I was frankly surprised that nobody else remembered this. For the record, because nobody had confirmed what I recalled, I was on the brink of admitting temporary insanity. That was, until Shades came along and corroborated what I recalled. What he said makes perfect sense. Chaos provided a background commentary in reference to the possible lawsuit and that is what I was reading the pinned post. I wasn’t imagining things. It was there. And then it wasn’t. The mods know this, but are banking on the hopes that nobody has saved a copy of the original post. I admit only having read it once, but I remember being irritated by the legal remark in the post. It was short and subtle, but it was there. And no, it wasn't Gee who said it, it was probably Chaos. I am readily willing to concede this.

You know there was no threat from Gee in the email or a mysterious thread missing from our board.

No, he said he doesn’t recall. That is something very different from saying “I know for a fact.” This is how the mods try to nudge people along and keep them in line by forcing words into their mouths and conclusions into their brains.

There is no evidence to support it.

Well,

1) there are two eye witnesses who have not been proved guilty of snooping into private messages and then lying about it.
2) There is a documented discussion on the day of the pinned email which discusses Gee’s contemplation over a possible lawsuit.
3) We also have Will Schryver telling us that Gee specifically instructed him to warn us all of a lawsuit
4) Just yesterday we saw Dan Peterson confirming that Gee has in fact spoken with an attorney about the possibility.

All of this counts as evidence, not proof. The mods over there don’t seem to understand what constitutes proof anymore than Raz.

Of course, everything I just listed is evidence. But the Madsters will have none of it. They want it to boil down to a “he said she said,” in which case, we already know who would win that popularity contest, especially on that crazy forum. I mean for Pete’s sake, Celestial Kingdom cannot even remain friends with me without being criticized over there. Dan told him it might actually be a crime. Can you imagine what would happen if anyone dared agree with me? I have received two PMs from posters – who are respected on both sides I think - who do but for obvious reasons, won’t express it over there.

Bsix now claims I had misrepresented him a while back. Unbelievable how he reaches this conclusion:

Any reasonable reader could read my post and understand that my comment was directed at the ineffectiveness of Evangelical propaganda at converting Mormons to traditional Christianity.

Exactly what I said you said. This was my statement:

Bsix decided to start a thread bragging because he says the anti-Mormon message isn’t effective because in his experience of various callings in four different wards he is only aware of one or two people who have left because of ant-Mormon materials.

Talk about your distinction without a difference. So according to Bsix, anti-Mormon “materials” and the anti-Mormon “message” is something completely different from what he was referring to: anti-Mormon “propaganda”! This is how desperate they are to make me look like someone who misrepresents. They’re willing to risk their own credibility with dumb comments like these.

[Guest]

I just caught the beginning of this “Question For The Moderators” thread at Mad where Juliann decided to bring up the Bromley situation again. She really is a glutton for punishment!

Through sophistry she intends to prove I have lied “indisputably” about using her name in the email to Bromley and Mauss, but she can only do this by mangling the corpus of emails while ignoring crucial points in the discussions to suit her purposes. Six months ago this fiasco started when I emailed the two scholars. I did not mention Juliann’s name in the email I sent. After a few exchanges Mauss guessed who she was because I said she was a former student of his. He guessed who she was, and so only after that point did I refer to her by name. Juliann didn’t explain this part because she desperately needs to score points with her little pep rally squad. By hiding this information from her audience, and refusing to link any of them to the detailed responses I have provided (which include the emails!) she is simply trying to fool them into thinking she has finally found some nugget of victory in her endless squabbles with me. hwouldn’t dare draw their attention to the links on this and my forum which detailed the scenarios with the relevant emails.

In short, when I said I didn't mention her name in the emails, I was speaking of the first two emails I sent out to them. Juliann knows this.

I provided the emails online for her to read, after she had her conniption fit that accused me of misrepresenting her and bad mouthing her. She also accused me of posting emails without permission. All of these charges were proved false when she emailed them and confirmed what I said was true. Se made these accusations without proof and was proved wrong. Yet, here she is facilitating the forum to pump out a storm of indignation because I accused the Mad mods of editing a post without proof!

So how’s that pep rally going Juliann? Give me an “H”….. Give me an “Y”….. Give me a “P”….

[_dartagnan]

Dan Peterson said,

“I myself think that John has been repeatedly, publicly, and maliciously libeled. But then, so have I. Almost invariably by pseudonymous message board posters. Quel courage!”

Dan first spread the false rumor about Ritner while hiding behind the pseudonym, “Logic Chopper.” When no backlash ensued, he later (two years) decided to make the charge under his real name. It was also Dan hiding behind the pseudonym “Free Thinker” who attacked me for being spiritually inept.

Quel courage!

[_dartagnan]

William Schryver initially said:

I have been requested to inform you that you may find yourself subjected to legal action in the near future on the basis of your continued insistence on publicly impugning the character of the good professor

Now, William changes his tune, effectively taking the fall for Gee:

John called me at home (I work at home) and we talked about many things until the battery on my phone started to give out. During the course of the conversation, John somewhat jokingly suggested that I might, with some subtlety, suggest to Celestial Kingdom that, if he continued with his line of comments that John was a liar, etc., he might find himself subject to legal action. Therefore I chose my words carefully, not intending to make a threat, per se, but simply conforming to John's implied suggestion to fire a shot across Celestial Kingdom's bow, as it were.

What was once a serious and straightforward “request,” has suddenly become light-hearted banter, whereby Gee merely “suggested” that William “might suggest” something. This is just too rich!

Once all the dust has settled, we still have my initial point being validated. And to be sure, this is one of my many established points the troops at MAD will not cite or discuss over at MAD (They are only interested in snagging partial statements from me so they can further their tar and feather ritual).

My point is this.

Upon returning from his trip, Dan Peterson found himself in the crosshairs of a possible legal dispute. Understanding that he had propagated a false rumor for more than six years, he immediately denounced me for informing the victim and then began decrying lawsuits as a poor means of making a point. Lawsuits destroy lives needlessly he said. Lawsuits threaten the welfare of the innocent.

Yet, Dan was completely ignorant of the recent legal discussion offered by those at MAD. Chaos indicated a possible lawsuit by Gee. William’s initial post made it perfectly clear that John Gee “requested” him to threaten Celestial Kingdom with a possible lawsuit. William has since tried to spin the situation as a joke, but what he said remains a threat. Saying he “might” sue him doesn’t mitigate the fact that it is a threat, anymore than saying “He might kill you” would be mitigated. This was clearly an attempt to intimidate his critics – those who are as terrified of lawsuits as Dan is.

So ultimately my point is valid. The board is stumbling over one another, not keeping track of what positions they want to take and have taken. If Dan wants to condemn me and Ritner because of a possible lawsuit, then he must also condemn Gee or be a hypocrite. Gee is willing to destroy “real lives” of his critics just because he doesn’t like being called incompetent? Gee has mentioned legal action when he has no basis for one. His main complaint is that people think he is stupid. I doubt Ritner would be contemplating a lawsuit if calling him incompetent was the worst crime. Gee is criticized by amateurs (who are still able to mop the floor with him) with no academic standing and with little voice. Ritner has been maligned by two professional scholars at BYU whose influence is considerable and whose voice is loud. There is a difference, and realizing this difference makes Gee’s threats of legal action seem petty when compared to the cause for Ritner’s lawsuit.

[_beastie]

in my opinion, these MAD Gee threads have been fabulous demonstrations of the problem with exmormons and internet apologist/Mormons attempting to communicate. It ain't gonna happen, folks. For whatever reason (I believe True Believerism has quite a bit to do with it) words have a different meaning to the groups. Will Schryver can appear and affirm what critics kept saying - his post left no doubt that Gee was threatening the possibility of a lawsuit (and Will's attempt to now label it a "joke" is the joke), and whether or not that was specified in Gee's "challenge" post, Kevin was correct in his memory that a lawsuit was threatened.

Even with those black and white words being said, the True Believers are still claiming victory and validation. They're cloaking themselves in victimhood along the way for good measure.

This is why I won't post at MAD, and why I have given up on trying to communicate with True Believers. It is utterly pointless. We don't even speak the same language.

As Eric Hoffer said:

It is the true believer's ability to “shut his eyes and stop his ears” to facts that do not deserve to be either seen or heard which is the source of his unequaled fortitude and constancy. He cannot be frightened by danger nor disheartened by obstacles nor baffled by contradictions because he denies their existence. Strength of faith, as Bergson pointed out, manifests itself not in moving mountains but in not seeing mountains to move. And it is the certitude of his infallible doctrine that renders the true believer impervious to the uncertainties, surprises and the unpleasant realities of the world around him.

The True Believer MADdites do not see that Kevin was actually correct, and Gee did insinuate a lawsuit could be forthcoming. They cannot see this. If they saw it, they would have to confront their own hypocrisy on the issue, and part of the True Believer mythology on MAD is that critics are evil liars, and the True Believers, fighting against liars and blasphemers, are always right.

There are some LDS posters who are not True Believers on MAD. You'll be able to differentiate the two groups on threads such as this. Can a believer actually admit his side was wrong, his side engaged in hypocrisy in proclaiming lawsuits of a desperate ploy of personal attack when one can't "win the war of words", while ignoring the fact two of their own blessed saints (DCP and Gee) have, themselves, seriously pondered lawsuits? If a believer can actually recognize and admit this flaw in their own side, there's a chance he/she is not a True Believer, in my opinion. Those who will go down with the ship, all the while screaming THE TITANIC IS UNSINKABLE are the real True Believers, not chapel Mormons.

Since Juliann is so enamored of apologies, if it doesn't take too long to find the old threads, I may just start demanding one from her, myself. No doubt she will comply quickly and happily, since apologies are so important to her.

[_William Schryver]

I veel show you a series of pictures und you veel tell me vhut you see:



"I see donuts pointing their finger at me and mocking me. I want to kill the donuts …"



"I see a smiling man sitting behind a desk, wearing a keffiyah, and eating donuts. I want to kill the donuts …"



"I see the donuts flying above my house. They’re looking for me! I want to kill the donuts …"


So ve see zat ze patient eez completely veethout hope of recovery. Ze only recourse at thees point eez permanent institutionalization in a country far far avay vair he can only do harm to heemself and to zee many angry voices screaming in heez head.

[_Yong Xi]

DCP may not have known the true story behind the Gee/Ritner relationship. In fact, he may be a willing dupe who trusted his colleague in all of this rather than the chief instigator. That instigator, is likely Gee himself who has been silent on the matter (Ritner), unless I am mistaken. It is possible that Gee fed DCP false information about the reasons Ritner did not continue his participation on the doctoral committee. If this is so, Gee is guilty of lying (apparently so according to Ritner) and DCP is guilty of spreading lies for an apologetic end. In essence, it became a Moses (Gee, can't speak publicly) and Aaron (DCP, can't shut up publicly) scenario.

Having said that, DCP clearly has stirred the pot and made this his issue, primarily in the name of apologetics by poisoning the reputation of Ritner. Gee's motives remain unknown, at least to me. (Geez, I am not even sure the guy is real.)

It would not be the first time DCP has passed on private information in order to poison the well. Quinn comes to mind. He continues to use poor judgement in dealing with matters that are private in nature. He seems to be willing to say anything about anybody without first checking the facts. Did he ever get Ritner's story before making public Gee's side? No, this (according to DCP) was entirely about defending the reputation of a friend. Well, his friend apparently was not completely forthcoming and DCP was his usual indiscrete self which resulted in this mess.

Kevin has taken alot of heat from MADB posters and some here regarding his contacting of Ritner. In my mind, he had every right to make the contact in order to corroborate Gee's/DCP's claims. The claims were of an apologetic nature. Ritner was supposedly biased and could not be trusted to accurately pass judgement on Gee's work. This is no different than checking out a footnote, and Kevin did that.

Any time an apologist seeks to use "personal knowledge" about a situation in order to bolster their apologetic defense, the accuracy of this "personal knowledge" should be corroborated where possible. The amateur apologists at MADB take at face value DCP's claims about his personal connections and never stand back to consider whether in fact they are real. DCP often appeals to his vast resevoir of "inside information", without the least bit of scrutiny by his followers.

Gee started this mess and DCP in his apologetic evangelic zeal has sold it.

I doubt seriously that lawsuits are in the works, and I hope not. It would be nice to get further response from Ritner himself, rather than bits and pieces of an email sent to Kevin. It would also be nice if Gee (personally) would make a statement regarding Ritner's response. I, for one, am still willing to consider that the truth lies somewhere between what we have heard (through DCP) and what Ritner has stated.

It is common to not check sources when it seems your side has the advantage. It seems that the MADB side did not check out Gee's/DCP's allegations and have been willing (Will Shryver) to engage in threat of lawsuit on behalf of Gee. I am sure Gee is a well educated, bright man. However, this fiasco coupled with his "test" posted on MADB lead me to believe he doesn't have much common sense.

[_beastie]

More from Hoffer on why the MAD True Believers cannot recognize that Kevin was actually correct in his assertion that a lawsuit was threatened.*

A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self.

And why they quibble about the word "threatened":

There is thus an illiterate air about the most literate true believer. He seems to use words as if he were ignorant of their true meaning. Hence, too, his taste for quibbling, hair-splitting and scholastic tortuousness.