Another Fundamental to Question...

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_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
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Another Fundamental to Question...

Post by _Roger Morrison »

As ever Spong provokes thinking of past concepts with present day perceptiveness... Cheered OR jeered, pasted is just part of his latest. I thought it to be TOO much in whole for some:

Like the first two of the five Fundamentals that we have thus far examined, this third one has also become not just unbelievable but bizarre to modern ears. Yet it remains so powerful that it still shapes the liturgy of Churches across the spectrum from the Roman Catholics to the Pentecostals. The words: "Jesus died for our sins," derived from this concept, have actually become an undefined mantra. The concentration on guilt by the Christen Church is a direct manifestation of this theology, feeding the anger that seems to flow out of Christianity toward whoever is its current designated victim. At various times in Christian history Jews, heretics, infidels, women and homosexuals have all been forced into the role of victim. If one is told often enough that he or she is evil, and that this evil is what caused the death of Jesus, the human psyche will project this pain onto another. The violence of Christian history makes no sense apart from this understanding. Christians have interpreted the cross as the place where the price of our sinfulness was paid by Jesus. So in this final column on the third Fundamental, I seek to develop a new understanding of the cross that might free Christianity from its unconscious sado-masochism that threatens even now to squeeze the very essence out of this faith tradition.

Let me begin by raising to consciousness just how nonsensical the statement "Jesus died for our sins" really is. How can the death of Jesus 2000 years ago affect you or me today? Behind these traditional religious words lie two concepts that need to be challenged. First, there is the theistic image of God as a divine, record-keeping judge, who sits on a heavenly throne demanding that we be punished for all our sins. Since we are not able to bear the divine wrath Jesus becomes our substitute by stepping in and enduring the punishment from God that we deserve. This punishing "Father God" carries out this sentence on the willing divine son. This strange theological claim enables us to sing of God's "amazing grace" saving a "wretch" like me.

It never seems to occur to the proponents of this theological twaddle that God just might exercise the divine power of forgiveness? Is that not what human parents would do with their wayward children? Would any one today call this punishing deity either moral or noble? Would we applaud parents who required the death of a surrogate before they would reach out to love and forgive their disobedient offspring? The church seems to confront us with an understanding of the cross that reduces God to a sadistic ogre or a punishing parent who delights in evening up the score. Who would want to worship this heavenly monster? This theory of atonement also reduces Jesus to being a hapless victim, perhaps even a masochistic one, who so enjoys suffering that he can hardly wait to mount his cross. Finally, this idea of salvation fills you and me with crippling guilt. We are said to be responsible for causing the death of Jesus. God required it, Jesus absorbed it and we are redeemed by it. These are the ideas that have traditionally shaped the Christian view of salvation. If that is what Christianity is, then please deliver me from this demonic religion! I do not believe in the God that this theology assumes. I am not drawn to the Jesus that this theology reveals. I do not want to live under the burden of guilt that this theology creates. The reformation of Christianity, for which I deeply yearn, will have to address this crucial and serious concept that I believe distorts Christianity totally.


How litterally these archaic presumptions are taken by most church-goers might be a good question. How much do today's "Believers" actually "believe"? Is Christianism getting closer to truth, or further from it? Thoughts... Warm regards, Roger
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Roger...

Great quote!

Actually this point speaks to the core of my disbelief ... what is God?

All the historical issues, the dishonesty, the horrific practices, teachings, unusual doctrine... ALL of it pales in comparison to what this all says about God.

My thoughts as to what is good, decent, caring, compassionate, and loving are in conflict with the God as taught in the Bible and in the church.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

The reformation of Christianity, for which I deeply yearn, will have to address this crucial and serious concept that I believe distorts Christianity totally.


I don't see how it is possible to reform it and leave out the core concepts of the belief. What would be left?
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

truth dancer wrote:Hi Roger...

Great quote!

Actually this point speaks to the core of my disbelief ... what is God?

All the historical issues, the dishonesty, the horrific practices, teachings, unusual doctrine... ALL of it pales in comparison to what this all says about God.

My thoughts as to what is good, decent, caring, compassionate, and loving are in conflict with the God as taught in the Bible and in the church.

~dancer~


Hi TD, once again we're on the same page. "What this (Bible) says about "God"," leads thinking people to eschew 'Biblical-God'. A "God" of hate, who is narcissistic, mean spirited, prejudiced, and devilish, in favour of 'Science-God'. A "God" without prejudice or favour; an unconditional respector of universal/natural laws.

This "God" was introduced by Jesus some 2,000 years ago. It seems however that this new "God", with the "Two New Commandments", wasn't well received at the time, nor since up to our time--generally speaking--by traditional Chrisianism that just cannot seem to acknowledge its bitter roots.

Bitter-roots--bitter fruits. Fruits that still tend to be the main-stay of our Christian influenced society: greed, fear, prejudice, pride, arrogance, injustice, malice, war et al... All of which Jesus taught to be contary to the will of this New-God he professed to represent. Can one help but ask the question: What happened?? Any answers???

MonkeyInABarrel asked a good question:

I don't see how it is possible to reform it and leave out the core concepts of the belief. What would be left?



IF/WHEN one recognizes "...the (traditional) core concepts..." to be a rotten-core, they can do several things: Disillusioned, they can walk away bitter and disgusted with the whole 'Religious' thing--understandable. Or, they might see through the "dark-glass" with new understanding and refocus on what is the "core" represented/presented by Jesus.

That "core" is framed in "The Two New Commandments"... "LOVE" (of the Creator & the Created) which embodies the good-stuff "Truth Dancer" expressed above.

What do we have "left" when we are free of Old Testament blood-sacrifice--whether of sheep/goats/Jesus--and the ignorance we have of a "next life"? We have minds that appreciate our ancestors and their beliefs--such as they were--BUT our minds are now open to THE challenge of living as thinking, feeling folks who live in the present, mindful of our responsibilitie for those less-bless AND for our stewardship of the Universe we ALL share. Then the future will be better than the past... I think that too is Spongs vision in his critique of "old-time-religion".

My studies have shown Jesus' message is one of human hope, and faith in humanity to "move mountains". Despair is not in my spiritual bag :-) Warm regards, Roger
_Tommy
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Post by _Tommy »

Brother Morrison,

I'm somewhat troubled at the words you have offered us today. You wrote,
We are said to be responsible for causing the death of Jesus.


We are in fact responsible collectively, but individually only insofar as we personally rebel against his doctrines. It was once said by a prophet of God,

And to their words are added those of new generations, as foolish men crucify the Christ anew—for they modify His miracles, doubt His divinity, and reject His Resurrection.


http://www.LDS.org/conference/talk/disp ... -9,00.html

Are you, Brother Morrison, doubting his miracles, his divinity, or rejecting his resurrection? Changing the literalness of Christ's ministry into merely a self-help metaphor sets the nail to His hand.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

According to the terms and conditions of the great plan of redemption, justice demands that a penalty be paid for every violation of the Lord's laws. This necessarily must be so or this mortal existence could not fulfill its purpose as a probationary and preparatory state. Since mortal man is on probation to prepare himself for eternity, and since he is endowed with the great gift of free agency, it follows that he must be held accountable for his disobedience. otherwise this sphere of existence would not provide the test nor give the experience which would qualify him to return to the presence of God hereafter.

Alma 42, D&C 88:40, 2 Nephi 2
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Gazelam wrote:According to the terms and conditions of the great plan of redemption, justice demands that a penalty be paid for every violation of the Lord's laws.


Who set these terms, and why?

This necessarily must be so or this mortal existence could not fulfill its purpose as a probationary and preparatory state.


Why?

Since mortal man is on probation to prepare himself for eternity, and since he is endowed with the great gift of free agency, it follows that he must be held accountable for his disobedience. otherwise this sphere of existence would not provide the test nor give the experience which would qualify him to return to the presence of God hereafter.

Alma 42, D&C 88:40, 2 Nephi 2


There's no reason that humans must be held accountable for disobedience. Would the plan of salvation have been any less effective had Heavenly Father allowed his children to learn from their mistakes and disobedience and not hold them accountable? The point is supposed to be to learn how to become like God through obedience, right? If so, the concept of punishment for sin makes no sense.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Gazelam
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Runtu

Post by _Gazelam »

In answer to your questions, lets pull something from todays headlines. Well, how about two somethings.

1) Why all the fuss about wheter or not Paris Hilton should be in jail, and

2) Why all the fuss about whether or not illegal aliens should be given amnesty?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Tommy wrote:Brother Morrison,

I'm somewhat troubled at the words you have offered us today. You wrote,
We are said to be responsible for causing the death of Jesus.


We are in fact responsible collectively, but individually only insofar as we personally rebel against his doctrines. It was once said by a prophet of God,

And to their words are added those of new generations, as foolish men crucify the Christ anew—for they modify His miracles, doubt His divinity, and reject His Resurrection.


http://www.LDS.org/conference/talk/disp ... -9,00.html

Are you, Brother Morrison, doubting his miracles, his divinity, or rejecting his resurrection? Changing the literalness of Christ's ministry into merely a self-help metaphor sets the nail to His hand.


Tommy, i think you might be dwelling in a state of confusion--yer not alone Bro :)?? The 'quote' you state as mine...will you please tell me from where you unearthed it? I do not recall EVER making IT... It doesn't fit my usual thinking, or dialogue...

However, to that point: Jesus died as a martyr of his cause. HE disturbed the equilibrium of the Priest Craft under which folks were intimidated, and persuaded to believe themselves evil--the result of a fabricated "Fall"-- that required 'blood-atonement' sacrifices by those authorized, by their exclusive franchise, to do the deed. Setting a precedence for KFC, McDs, et al...

Into your quote below i will inject my responses in bold:

Are you, Brother Morrison, doubting his miracles, Yes his divinity, Yesor rejecting his resurrection? YesChanging the literalness of Christ's ministry into merely a self-help RM: I think Christ was really into "SELF-HELP"--a personal responsibility to self AND others. His whole curriculum was one of hands-on-rationality--cause & effect.. metaphor sets the nail to His hand. Irrelevant bit of poetry??


[/quote]

Tom, in summary: Jesus was not born of a "Virgin", as we understand that term. Nor is he "Divine", as we understand that term... HOWEVER, IMSCO, HE is an inspiration, and a role model--generally speaking--yet to come into HIS own...

When christianism finally crawls completely from under the mythology, superstitions and absurdities that have, to this point, kept humanity behind the "dark glass"--allowing greed, fear, hate, envy, war, injustice etc as the prime factors of human motivation, generally speaking of course--THEN the dreams of "old-men" & the visions of Christ will be our spiritual, social and material environment... I respectfully suggest... Warm regards, Roger
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Re: Runtu

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Gazelam wrote:In answer to your questions, lets pull something from todays headlines. Well, how about two somethings.

1) Why all the fuss about wheter or not Paris Hilton should be in jail, and

2) Why all the fuss about whether or not illegal aliens should be given amnesty?


Sounds like you're looking forward to a hereafter where there won't be any Paris Hilton or illegal aliens. I hope you're not too disappointed when you find them and all the rest of us too.

The Jesus who died for our sins is a creation of men's basic human nature and I'm afraid he will remain popular with most believers because they understand the concept of reward/punishment much better than the concept of forgiveness and they can't or won't imagine a God who, like the father of the prodigal son, took his son back with rejoicing and without question. That is the model Jesus gave us of God, and it should be just that simple, but no, human nature wants to make a religion out of it with commandments and prophets and threats and judgments.
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