DiscussMormonism.com

A current thread on MAD is actually interesting, not just mindlessly entertaining:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 25415&st=0

Several believers are predicating their arguments on the idea that Joseph Smith didn't actually understand the text he translated. Brant Gardner has also made this assertion.

However, the same people arguing that Joseph Smith did NOT really understand the book he translated also argue for a "loose translation" theory, versus the "Joseph as Reader" translation method.

These two assertions are incompatible:

1 - Joseph Smith did not understand the Book of Mormon
2 - Joseph Smith was not just a reader, but was actively involved (in some unnamed way) in "translating" the text

The only way Joseph Smith could not have understood the Book of Mormon were if he were a reader, not an active translator. An active translator, (in whatever imagined way) must understand the text he/she is translating. This is even more crucial for the unknown process through which Joseph Smith translated the text. He was not reading words off a stone, according to this theory (and contradicting contemporary accounts) - no, he was actually processing the text enough to be able to formulate a coherent translation.

This is a common problem with Book of Mormon apologetics, and, in my opinion, indicative of the ad hoc nature of Book of Mormon apologia.

It is an interesting thead.

Long live Addictio! I can only play second fiddle in his threads.

beastie wrote:The only way Joseph Smith could not have understood the Book of Mormon were if he were a reader, not an active translator. An active translator, (in whatever imagined way) must understand the text he/she is translating.

This is not necessarily true. Yes, "conceptual inspiration" as it is usually conceived states that a prophet is given images/concepts/impressions which he then puts into words however he sees fit. But I think there are some possibilities in-between conceptual inspiration and verbal inspiration that allow for some input from the prophet without necessarily saying that he understood what he was reading.

Have you ever used an interlinear Bible? At the bottom of this post is an example of what such a Bible looks like (sorry for the large image). Notice that every Hebrew word is paired with its literal English translation. These are not arranged in any kind of grammatical order, and a non-Hebraist might frequently be at a loss as to how the pieces fit together. Even professional translators frequently struggle with forming the disparate pieces into coherent sentences, figuring out how much modernizing to do, trying to understand what an obscure phrase or idiom really meant and transfer that into English (the euphemism "feet" being one example), etc. What Joseph Smith and his scribes describe in terms of translation is looking into the stone and seeing the Reformed Egyptian appear along with its English translation. But what if it was something like the interlinear Bible pictured below? That might explain how Joseph had to "work out in his mind" during the translation process. He had to figure out how to render the literal and somewhat disjointed mess of English words into something coherent and meaningful.

Of course, I don't really believe this is what happened. But I do enjoy playing Joseph's advocate from time to time.



-CK

beastie wrote:These two assertions are incompatible:

1 - Joseph Smith did not understand the Book of Mormon
2 - Joseph Smith was not just a reader, but was actively involved (in some unnamed way) in "translating" the text

It's only unclear in a normal secular translation. As others have said if the medium was images or general ideas were conveyed to the Prophet he may have failed to grasp everything he saw or that was conveyed to him. I think he understood it while dictating it (more comprehensively than we can without the same experience) but his attempt to convey it was allowed to stand.

If I remember correctly Brigham Young said that Joseph planned to re-translate the whole thing (presumably using the same method as the Bible translation) to make it more clear and correct but the Lord forbid him to do it. He made some changes but nothing like he might have done. I can't find the source for that, I was sure it was here. If I find it I'll edit my post.

beastie wrote:These two assertions are incompatible:

1 - Joseph Smith did not understand the Book of Mormon
2 - Joseph Smith was not just a reader, but was actively involved (in some unnamed way) in "translating" the text

#1 has been my contention for some time now. I have a thread in the celestial forum with a list. I believe he disregarded the value of it's wisdom. I think the book reveals the true nature of Joseph Smith and even his organization at the time of his death.


http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=2189

Yes, it's an interesting thread, as addictio's participation ensures. He is, by far, the sharpest poster I've ever met, on any board. He makes mincemeat out of his "opponents", and often they don't even realize what has happened.

CK, if I understand your interlinear example, this is still a "joseph as reader" theory. It would require a bit more from Joseph since he would have to figure out the correct order of the various phrases, but someone else (ie, God) just gave him the specific English words that constitute the phrases. So this "joseph as reader" (which I believe is actually the one consistent with contemporary statements) is compatible with Joseph Smith not understanding the Book of Mormon, but then one loses the "translation errors" bonus of particular words that are anachronistic.

It's only unclear in a normal secular translation. As others have said if the medium was images or general ideas were conveyed to the Prophet he may have failed to grasp everything he saw or that was conveyed to him. I think he understood it while dictating it (more comprehensively than we can without the same experience) but his attempt to convey it was allowed to stand.

If I remember correctly Brigham Young said that Joseph planned to re-translate the whole thing (presumably using the same method as the Bible translation) to make it more clear and correct but the Lord forbid him to do it. He made some changes but nothing like he might have done. I can't find the source for that, I was sure it was here. If I find it I'll edit my post.

Nehor,

Under this proposition, then it is useless to try and use the actual text of the Book of Mormon to parse out anything, including whether or not "and all who would go with me" meant indigenous others. The book is the product of Joseph Smith' understanding, under the loose translation theory, and if that understanding was flawed (as the theory "Joseph Smith did not understand the Book of Mormon" requires), then the text is flawed. With the loose translation theory, there can be no battle between what the text "actually says" and what Joseph Smith "thought" the text said. They are one and the same. That's how the text got there - it's what Joseph Smith thought it was saying. So if Joseph Smith didn't understand the book, it is his flawed misconception of the book that is now the Book of Mormon.

#1 has been my contention for some time now. I have a thread in the celestial forum with a list. I believe he disregarded the value of it's wisdom. I think the book reveals the true nature of Joseph Smith and even his organization at the time of his death.

I'll check it out.

Naturally they have to argue this since Joseph Smith disagrees with their modern apologetics regarding the Lamanite - Indian link.

Since Joseph Smith believed American Indians were descendants of Jews, he must had been misunderstanding the text, like modern critics even though he was responsible for producing it.

Naturally they have to argue this since Joseph Smith disagrees with their modern apologetics regarding the Lamanite - Indian link.

Since Joseph Smith believed American Indians were descendants of Jews, he must had been misunderstanding the text, like modern critics even though he was responsible for producing it.

Of course this, along with the entire "loose translation" theory is ad hoc, constructed not because any contemporary evidence supports it, but constructed directly as a reaction to the scientific and archaeological evidence that has since arisen.

I have very little respect for the "loose translation" theory, and only debate the Book of Mormon with that as a given because that is the playing field most apologists demand.

Inconceivable wrote:#1 has been my contention for some time now. I have a thread in the celestial forum with a list.

Link?

Something odd about...

Joseph Smith, the chosen prophet of the dispensation, restorer of the true church of Christ, chosen of God, next to Jesus Christ in stature didn't understand the Book of Mormon as he mingled with anglels, received revelations, and communed with Jehovah, but apologists have it all figured out.

As a believer I had a difficult time with this train of thought!

:-)

~dancer~