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Mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) from 167 American Indians including 87 Amerind-speakers (Amerinds) and 80 Nadene-speakers (Nadene) were surveyed for sequence variation by detailed restriction analysis. All Native American mtDNAs clustered into one of four distinct lineages, defined by the restriction site variants: HincII site loss at np 13,259, AluI site loss at np 5,176, 9-base pair (9-bp) COII-tRNA(Lys) intergenic deletion and HaeIII site gain at np 663. The HincII np 13,259 and AluI np 5,176 lineages were observed exclusively in Amerinds and were shared by all such tribal groups analyzed, thus demonstrating that North, Central and South American Amerinds originated from a common ancestral genetic stock. The 9-bp deletion and HaeIII np 663 lineages were found in both the Amerinds and Nadene but the Nadene HaeIII np 663 lineage had a unique sublineage defined by an RsaI site loss at np 16,329. The amount of sequence variation accumulated in the Amerind HincII np 13,259 and AluI np 5,176 lineages and that in the Amerind portion of the HaeIII np 663 lineage all gave divergence times in the order of 20,000 years before present. The divergence time for the Nadene portion of the HaeIII np 663 lineage was about 6,000-10,000 years. Hence, the ancestral Nadene migrated from Asia independently and considerably more recently than the progenitors of the Amerinds. The divergence times of both the Amerind and Nadene branches of the COII-tRNA(Lys) deletion lineage were intermediate between the Amerind and Nadene specific lineages, raising the possibility of a third source of mtDNA in American Indians.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1204788


http://cita.chattanooga.org/mtdna.html


Amazing that this is all pre Tom Murphy. It really, really, isn't so simple.

Since you seem to believe this 'tightens the noose on the critics', why don't you explain HOW it does so?

Coggins7 wrote:It really, really, isn't so simple.

Murphy overstated his case, but it really, really is so simple.

Coggins7 wrote:The amount of sequence variation accumulated in the Amerind HincII np 13,259 and AluI np 5,176 lineages and that in the Amerind portion of the HaeIII np 663 lineage all gave divergence times in the order of 20,000 years before present. The divergence time for the Nadene portion of the HaeIII np 663 lineage was about 6,000-10,000 years.

You are hanging yourself, coggins. This is evidence against traditional beliefs about the Book of Mormon.

The Dude wrote:

Coggins7 wrote:The amount of sequence variation accumulated in the Amerind HincII np 13,259 and AluI np 5,176 lineages and that in the Amerind portion of the HaeIII np 663 lineage all gave divergence times in the order of 20,000 years before present. The divergence time for the Nadene portion of the HaeIII np 663 lineage was about 6,000-10,000 years.

You are hanging yourself, coggins. This is evidence against traditional beliefs about the Book of Mormon.

ROFLOL!!! Yes, he quotes these fancy-pants source (when pressed, of course), but does he even bother to read them? And if so, does he understand them? More par-for-the-course from our favorite redneck.

Shhh! That's why I wanted HIM to explain himself.

Who Knows wrote:Shhh! That's why I wanted HIM to explain himself.

(Wiping tears from corners of eyes) Oh, my goodness.... My belly is starting to hurt from laughing so hard.... LOL!!!

The Dude wrote:You are hanging yourself, coggins. This is evidence against traditional beliefs about the Book of Mormon.

I think Loran is implying that the "third source" might be the Lehites (or Jaredites, or Mulekites?). ;)

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

The Dude wrote:You are hanging yourself, coggins. This is evidence against traditional beliefs about the Book of Mormon.

I think Loran is implying that the "third source" might be the Lehites (or Jaredites, or Mulekites?). ;)

Then he's not reading very closely.

But I don't want to speak for him. Let him explain it himself. Coggins?

I'm not implying any such thing about the third DNA source being Lehites or any other Book of Mormon groups, but such a response is just what I'd expect from such a pack of tendentious hyenas just waiting to pounce on what they think is a juicy carcass. Scratch, as usual, is intellectually in neutral (and with all those degrees, you really wouldn't expect that now, would you?)

Its just sometimes a great treat to watch desperate, flailing demagogues and intellectual posers walk right into a freight train.

The old Bering Straight land bridge theory may account for much of Amerindian ancestry. It cannot account for all of it. There are some significant problems with tagging al Indians as Eurasians from a genetic point of view, and as there significant evidence that a rather large number of peoples to various degrees have inhabited the Americas alongside the Amerindians since very ancient times, the DNA record is going to be far more complex than certain modern scientific dogmas suggest (and the land bridge theory has not been proven, it should be pointed out. Not a shred of archaeological evidence exists that the actual migration ever occurred--except at both ends. There has never been evidence of human settlement or dwelling found on the land bridge itself...although plenty of megafauna).

What this shows is that the DNA history of the Amerindian peoples is far from unitary, and given all the uncertainties and interpretive problems surrounding such research, it would be no surprise if it was found in the future to be appreciable more complex than thought up to this point.

Murphy didn't overstate his case. Murphy didn't know what on earth he was even talking about to a great degree, and clearly didn't understand the science behind the specific kind of research he was analyzing. Serious scientists, both LDS and non-LDS tore Murhpy to shreds after publication of his meta-analysis and this unknown Anthropologist from an unknown community college disappeared from view. The huge mistakes Murphy made could have been avoided if he had done his paper with a serious geneticist. But his agenda precluded finding someone who actually understood the complexities and uncertainties surrounding genetic analysis of ancient populations.